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Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

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Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#111

Post by WalterBright »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #104
nostrebored wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're poor and want to get out you choose interests that make you more wealthy. You choose majors in college that make you more money with better financial security. The starving artist routine is nearly entirely played out by middle to upper middle class people.

Heck no on thd last part. There's tons of poor and working class people that think they'll get rich with music or something. They get reinforcement from the media and pop artists themselves that brag about getting richer than everyone with just a song or two. I run into them all the time in my area.

There are tons of documentaries on TV of rags to riches musicians, actors, etc. It does make it seem straightforward. There aren't so many documentaries on the more mundane and much more likely paths to a better life.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#112

Post by WalterBright »

ap22213 wrote: post #79
coldtea wrote: post #3

Statistics and chances. Some poor kids are bound to thrive eventually -- and chances make sure those kids have some things that other poor kids don't (a mentor in their life, a parent who isn't working 2 jobs or drinking but can spend some time with them, live in a good school district, their curiousness wasn't beaten out of them by bad early experiences, looks enabling them to be taken for better than other poor kid…

Yep, luck. I'm the child of a single mom of 4 who made $7000 / year, and I'm the first of my extended family to graduate college and the first millionaire (my younger brother got to middle class). Luck is the way that I succeeded. 1st, being born with a high IQ helped. But, that clearly wasn't enough since I had the lowest IQ of my family. And, 40% of my gifted class didn't even graduate high school. 2nd, being born…

> But, looking back on it all, it was mostly luck. I wish I could say that I had some part in it, but really, I didn't.

Don't discount the value of the choices you made, like 1 (choosing to graduate), 2 (making good choices of friends), 4 (there's a lot one can do to improve attractiveness, like standing up straight, haircut, choosing clothes, demeanor, etc.), 5 (choosing friends), 6 (choosing to pay attention to a mentor instead of dismissing her), 7 (choosing to go to college), 8 (choosing a major).

You made a LOT of choices along your path to success. The individual details are luck, but recognizing those opportunities and taking advantage are very much a choice on your part. Life is complex, and everyone encounters lucky details that they may or may not recognize for what they are. You did.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#113

Post by unclebucknasty »

eropple wrote: post #47
unclebucknasty wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College doesn't "cure" imposter syndrome. I'm not sure what does.

For me, success. I started being much more willing to believe the projection of confidence that I had learned to do in order to sell myself as capable and competent once I realized that I was coming in above the level promised by that projection in the first place. It really is "fake it 'til you make it." But in my experience that does go away, a lot, once you can really say to yourself that you've made it (even just…

But, success is actually a prerequisite for imposter syndrome. It's the haunting feeling that you don't deserve that success and that you will be somehow "discovered".

One thing I can relate to though is working really hard for fear of underperforming or proving to be under qualified, only to learn later that others felt I was performing exceedingly well.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#114

Post by hackuser »

spo81rty wrote: post #17

I was born in a trailer park in Oklahoma. Lived in a 1 bedroom shack, and then lived with my grandparents until high school after my parents got divorced. I grew up very poor. But I loved computers, thanks to my dad having a Commodore 64. I excelled at math, loved computers, and went to DeVry to do computer programming. I was the first in my family to go to college. Started my first tech company at 22. With a lot of…

> With a lot of hard work, I believe anyone can break out of poverty.

I'm glad you made it; that's impresssive and great news. The data and research overwhelmingly disagree with your statement; so few make it. Read the stories of those kids in the article; it's not reasonable to say that they merely lacked hard work. As I posted elsewhere, the bar obviously is set much too high for most of humanity (and I assume we are talking about people in wealthy nations).

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#115

Post by ruairidhwm »

pjmorris wrote: post #77

Programming was my identity project. I suppose it still is. I grew up US rural South poor. My childhood started well, but went down hill to the point that, by high school, my single mom was raising three kids in a 2 bedroom single-wide trailer. I aced standardized tests, but my initial idea of what to do after high school was to keep my dishwasher job. Mom, the guidance counselors and our support system weren't of mu…

Very impressive, I hope things are working out for you :)

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#116

Post by WalterBright »

neffy wrote: post #80
askyourmother wrote: post #11

Some of the most famous self-made wealthy individuals in the UK were from poor backgrounds of varying degree. I remember more than one stating that they felt if they wanted to escape that world, they had to make their own luck, grab every opportunity, be ready to change direction if fortuitous winds prevail, and essentially be there in body and mind to really give it a go. In some cases they literally start with noth…

Yes, it's something of a selection problem. The assumption behind this belief set is that they were the select few who could do this. There is an alternative hypothesis that out of the large number of people with poor background who did this, they were the few somewhat randomly selected to succeed. Certainly if you look at their biographies there seems to be a consistent element of right person in right place at righ…

My father told me that the reason most people don't recognize opportunity is that it comes disguised as hard work.

I.e. nobody is going to get lucky by watching TV.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#117

Post by nommm-nommm »

nostrebored wrote: post #87
nommm-nommm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had interests that lead you to financial security and an ability to pursue said interests - that's just plain dumb luck. I'm not saying that you did not work hard, I'm sure you did. I am saying that plenty of people work just as hard but stay in poverty.

When you're poor and want to get out you choose interests that make you more wealthy. You choose majors in college that make you more money with better financial security. The starving artist routine is nearly entirely played out by middle to upper middle class people.

At the very least you need both opportunity (access to a computer, which was a luxury 15 years ago) and you have to have the aptitude to be able to learn programming. (Remember a lot of these kids in Baltimore have lead poisoning). As well as the free time to do so. (I knew kids in my neighborhood who had to quit school to work full time [and overtime] to help their parents pay rent).

Not to mention I don't think that you can really "force" yourself to have the "correct" interests.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#118

Post by hackuser »

WalterBright wrote: post #108
mkstowegnv wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you are the only child who is not mentally ill in a family where both parent have chronic illness that requires constant care and neither of them has siblings? I don't read a lot of success stories about people who spent much of their lives as caregivers. What if you are in a part of the world (read much of the world) where the only paths to success require seriously unethical behavior? The right partner make…

In other countries it may very well be different, but in America people mostly make their own luck. As to working hard, that isn't what counts. It's making the right choices, i.e. working smart. Sure, lots start out with many disadvantages and will have a tougher road. But if you're able-bodied, you do have choices.

> in America people mostly make their own luck.

That's clearly not the case. Off the top of my head, success depends heavily on the neighborhood and family you are born into. Are your parents divorced, in prison, are they alchoholics, do they teach you values and education, do they abuse you, do they rear you at all, can they afford food, electricity, or college? Does the school in your zip code have books the classrooms? Are you going to get shot in the streets, do your friends sell drugs? Is it a wealthy suburban school where 90% go to college, a poor urban one where 90% are literate?

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#119

Post by hackuser »

wallflower wrote: post #36
eropple wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's cool that you've managed to do that, at the same time I think "with a lot of hard work" trivializes the amount of insanely hard work that large portions of the working class does do, with almost nothing to show for it. Poverty traps are real and they are very, very difficult to escape from, and in many ways it's destiny-by-dart-board.

I recall an anecdote about a college professor who had students pull cards out of a bucket. What card you pulled out of a bucket determined your fate as a person born during the Middle Ages. Most of the cards were peasant or died at age n (where n I used to joke with some of my fellow geeks (ok, I still do) that if we were born two or three hundred years earlier, we would have had a horrible life in the fields, farmi…

> I used to joke with some of my fellow geeks (ok, I still do) that if we were born two or three hundred years earlier, we would have had a horrible life in the fields, farming.

And some people with the talent to code don't have the physiology to last long doing manual labor.

Re: Why Do Some Poor Kids Thrive?

#120

Post by hackuser »

nostrebored wrote: post #87
nommm-nommm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had interests that lead you to financial security and an ability to pursue said interests - that's just plain dumb luck. I'm not saying that you did not work hard, I'm sure you did. I am saying that plenty of people work just as hard but stay in poverty.

When you're poor and want to get out you choose interests that make you more wealthy. You choose majors in college that make you more money with better financial security. The starving artist routine is nearly entirely played out by middle to upper middle class people.

> You choose majors in college that make you more money

I wonder how many poor kids ever have the opportunity to choose a major in college?

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