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Classism in America

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Re: Classism in America

#161

Post by radiowave »

benpbenp wrote: post #156
WalterBright wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the middle ages, when the French conquered Britain, the ruling class spoke French and the peasants spoke English. A lot of French words flowed into English as a result. But even today, if people use the words of French origin rather than the old English words, one is regarded as being from the upper class, such as using 'purchase' instead of 'buy'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Frenc.…

The tendency to use "fancier" vocabulary has actually been noted as a tendency of the non-Upper class. Cf. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English

The language of aspiration. I like to think that "re-architect" is non-U.

Re: Classism in America

#162

Post by jamiepenney »

JPKab wrote: post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

I do the same thing. There's a particular way of speaking in the North of New Zealand that is associated with poor Maori - when I'm talking to my dad's family, I switch back to talking like that. I mask it in almost all other situations, but it's caught a few friends out at times. One told me it was like talking to a completely different person.

My dad is a tradesperson, and his influence is the one thing I have never been able to completely hide, even in professional settings. It's gotten me a bit of grief over the years, as my response to stress is often to start swearing like a builder.

On one hand, I like being able to code-switch easily. On the other hand, I feel like the only reason I can do it is because I had to, and the inability to completely mask my lower class upbringing has negatively impacted my opportunities at times.

At this point, I just try to own it. If I don't, it's just persisting the negative stereotypes of people of Maori descent never making something of themselves. Gotta start breaking those biases down somehow.

Re: Classism in America

#163

Post by vinbreau »

JPKab wrote: post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

I'm from SE Texas and had a very thick accent growing up. I spent considerable effort getting rid of that accent around age 16. It's a double edged sword. I got so good at it that when I acquired a job at a newspaper in the town I was born in it caused some issues. Locals were upset about our paper hiring a girl from Indiana and another guy from Ohio. It was a very small town and the locals believed the local newspaper should be staffed by locals. When I would interview people they would get standoffish, accusing me of being a northerner, an outsider. I would tell them I could see the hospital I was born in from my office window, but they wouldn't believe me. My accent still comes out when I've had a few drinks or get tired. I've had a few people notice and think it's hysterical that I try to hide it. I too work in tech now and don't want anybody making snap judgments about me from the way I speak.

Re: Classism in America

#164

Post by zeveb »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #154
tomc1985 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And country bumpkins despise townies... so everyone hates everyone! Let's just get that out there :)

Sure, but I'd wager that the rural folk would be fine if all the city dwellers disappeared, and that the opposite is not true.

> Sure, but I'd wager that the rural folk would be fine if all the city dwellers disappeared, and that the opposite is not true.

As much as I like rural folks and like to spend time with them (and despise folks who look down on them), the farmer is just as reliant on the financiers who ensure a steady cash flow for the multinational which delivers him his fertiliser, his fuel, the parts for his tractor, his clothes, his food &c. &c. &c.

We're all interconnected.

Re: Classism in America

#165

Post by nkurz »

skrjabin wrote: post #148
nkurz wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ask in another comment whether you are oblivious. Playfully, I respond "Yes, you are oblivious". Using "shibboleth" as a shibboleth is itself a shibboleth. She's declaring her bona fides (gratuitous Latin is also a shibboleth, especially if highlighted with italics) as a scholar by demonstrating her ability to use an obscure term correctly, and is being gracious to her audience by assuming their comprehension. Sw…

The author is obviously self-aware and this is precisely what makes it frustrating. Nearly every point is obfuscated through ornamentation, or broken up into parenthetical statements like a jigsaw puzzle. The entire article could be summarized in a concise paragraph with minimal loss of meaning. It's just pretension.

It's just pretension.

No. Or maybe yes, but not in the condescending way you imply. The article is about "class", and stylistically, it's speaking to a particular class. If you are in that target class (or familiar with it), it reads very well. If you are not, well, that's the self-referential topic of the article.

Re: Classism in America

#166

Post by r00fus »

JPKab wrote: post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

Everything you say is essentially also valid for immigrants (perhaps now citizens) who haven't lost their accent.

While I agree this is not ideal, it's also built into human nature to use any/all hints to help generalize/categorize (likely because it determined survival in the past).

Re: Classism in America

#167

Post by cblock811 »

Yeah I got rid of my accent years ago when I realized that stigma existed. I also try to sound...less gay (idk how else to explain it) when I'm dealing with new people. Deeper voice, neutral accent, etc. It's pretty annoying to have to dodge random prejudices but that's life I guess.

Re: Classism in America

#168

Post by Animats »

From the article: "Most people are very ignorant of the norms and values of the social classes more than one degree above or below their own." Somewhere, there must be a "how to" guide for social class. There's a questionnaire, but other than some meaningless content on Quora, not much guidance.[1]

Where there is guidance, it's about language usage.[2] The classic on this being, of course, "My Fair Lady"[1]. This is less of an issue since TV and movies imposed a standard linguistic dialect.

The author likes Paul Fussell's "Class", which is an excellent read. It's quite funny.

Social class is less social than it used to be, and more marketed. As a horse owner, I've seen this change since the 1980s. In the 1980s, it would have been considered tacky to have advertising at a horse show. Now, Rolex ads are all over the place. Polo is the classic upper class sport (Silicon Valley has three polo fields), but polo players are usually people who were football jocks in high school, but not college.

Well into the 1980s, regular customers could sign their register receipts at Roberts of Woodside (a supermarket with an excellent deli) and be billed monthly.

[1] http://www.asanet.org/introtosociology/Documents/Hidden%20Ru... [2] http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg

Re: Classism in America

#169

Post by hkmurakami »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #99
zeveb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

Exactly. As a southerner, I have an accent, but I also don't answer important questions fast. IOW, I pause a beat to collect my thoughts. People tend to think this too is a sign of "stupid". Really, it's just I don't like to be wrong. I'd rather be slow up front and be right, than fast up front and be wrong. However, our development culture tends to think everything needs to happen as fast as possible (the whole twit…

>IOW, I pause a beat to collect my thoughts. People tend to think this too is a sign of "stupid". Really, it's just I don't like to be wrong. I'd rather be slow up front and be right, than fast up front and be wrong.

I'm really glad to hear that I'm not alone with this struggle. Still don't have a good answer for it though. :(

Re: Classism in America

#170

Post by nkurz »

kbenson wrote: post #152
nkurz wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ask in another comment whether you are oblivious. Playfully, I respond "Yes, you are oblivious". Using "shibboleth" as a shibboleth is itself a shibboleth. She's declaring her bona fides (gratuitous Latin is also a shibboleth, especially if highlighted with italics) as a scholar by demonstrating her ability to use an obscure term correctly, and is being gracious to her audience by assuming their comprehension. Sw…

> You ask in another comment whether you are oblivious. Playfully, I respond "Yes, you are oblivious". A totally valid response, I was asking honestly, not sarcastically. :) The truth is, I'm not exposed to southern accents very often outside of media. I've lived and worked an hour north of SF most my life, and I think I'm more likely to identify a British or Australian accent in the area than I am a southern one. Un…

I've lived and worked an hour north of SF most my life

As evidence of my incomplete assimilation, I happened to spend last weekend up your way (north of Lake Sonoma) doing carpentry and pig hunting at a relative's cabin. Culturally, as an Eastern-educated Wisconsinite who was born in the South, I sometimes think I fit in better in your area than down here in the Bay Area proper.

the number tabs I have open in an obviously unsuccessful attempt to work around this behavior

I'm familiar with that. When I said "this is a brilliant article", it means I had the article open in a tab for months with the intent of submitting to HN at some appropriate time, and closed it only when I switched browsers (Opera to Safari).

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