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Classism in America

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Re: Classism in America

#131

Post by rnovak »

Roboprog wrote: post #70
zeveb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

On the other hand, look at how (politically) "those people" behave in aggregate. It might only be a majority of 51%, but clearly there is a sizable portion of people in the (traditionally somewhat sparsely populated) south / center of the country that have quite different values than the the people living along the crowded coasts. Not saying one group is smarter/dumber, just that the difference in values makes it har…

Or, you know, less people vote in the south. In the 2012 Election, southern states all had far less turnout than northern states[1]. Your'e not comparing apples to apples.

Saying the entire south in aggregate is "stupider" because of that is plain wrong.

http://www.electproject.org/2012g

Re: Classism in America

#132

Post by tomc1985 »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #92
jff wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget "flyover states", to be uttered in the same tone of disgust as "southerner"!

Yup, same deal. The city dwellers always despise the rural folk they depend on.

And country bumpkins despise townies... so everyone hates everyone! Let's just get that out there :)

Re: Classism in America

#133

Post by WalterBright »

I once went out to lunch at a modest restaurant with a couple friends, one from a wealthy eastern family and one from poverty. The former was dressed like a slob, the latter in a nice suit.

I was fascinated how the former exuded class in how he comfortably dealt with the waiter and the wine list, etc., while the latter clearly was desperately trying to do that and failing.

The difference was apparent even in how they walked and sat.

Re: Classism in America

#134

Post by forrestthewoods »

JPKab wrote: post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

Seattle is wildly bigoted against Southerners. Wildly. It's a real problem.

Re: Classism in America

#135

Post by 762236 »

henrikschroder wrote: post #102
JPKab wrote: post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

Since no-one else mentioned it yet in this subthread, the phenomenon you are discussing is called a sociolect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolect Basically, since class is culture, and cultures have language, a sociolect describes the language of a class, the ways you have to talk to perform that class. And, naturally, this goes both ways. Someone talking the sociolect of a certain class is seen as performing th…

I could see the author choose more complicated vocabulary (superfluously) as she progressed through her introduction, and I took it as a demonstration of what she was talking about.

Re: Classism in America

#136

Post by hyperliner »

todd8 wrote: post #113
hyperliner wrote: post #3

This is a very good article. In America, there is also an example where we "build up" the social class of some segment to compensate for our self-centered guilt. Take the example of the military service. The vast majority of people would rather be at the mall and let someone else fight and die for the country. But the "I support our troops" bumper sticker is everywhere, or maybe they sent ten bucks to Fisher House or…

But I'd rather be at the mall than mow my yard. I pay someone to do that. I'd rather be at the mall than work on my own plumbing. I pay someone else to do that. The key point is that at some level I'd rather be at the mall that work as a software developer, but I'm really good at that so that's what I do instead of goofing off at the mall all day. We should do what we are most productive at, in this way we contribute…

But how do you know you are not a better soldier? Assuming you are in the USA, there is no mandatory military service. Who is to say you are not great one, but you just don't know?

On another angle, the point is not about being a soldier specifically. How about doing intelligence, or translation, or manufacturing, or X, or Y, or Z for the purpose of fulfilling whatever mission the President has decided is important?

The point that you are "told" by the government is a weak one. In the US at least, you elect representatives to make the right decisions for you.

I have been to Israel where I saw armed young people welcoming me to the airport and doing their job for their country. Everybody has to do that job for some time. Everybody needs to sacrifice that time during which you cannot "go to the mall."

Maybe if that was the case, there would be less wars as people would think twice about it, as it used to happen in the past in the US.

My point was that we do build up this "social class" called the "military" when most would not ever consider joining. And that is what is hypocritical.

Re: Classism in America

#137

Post by grahamburger »

hoorayimhelping wrote: post #55
zeveb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

When I moved to New York City after living in Florida and North Carolina, I was really surprised at the blatant bigotry here. I've had people respected in this industry for their open mindedness look at me without irony and ask me if it's really as bad as everyone "down there" calling everyone else ... (looks around nervously) ... the N-word. Todd Barry has a great bit on this (language might be offensive to some) ht…

I had an opposite experience - I moved to Louisiana from a northern state and was shocked at the amount of racism and bigotry openly displayed. While looking in to buying a house I was told but multiple realtors to avoid certain areas because they are "too black." Also I distinctly remember seeing a bumper sticker that deriding mixed race relationships that ended with "don't be a race-mixing slut." Absolutely blew my mind - I didn't know those attitudes still existed.

Re: Classism in America

#138

Post by dataker »

I live in South America and classes here are, similar to Europe, not really tied to your money.

It's really funny: I grew up in a slum, but software now gives me as much money as politicians and senior executives of public companies.

In my first paying contract overseas, I went to the most expensive restaurant in my town.

Although I wore the same clothes and belonged to the same race, everybody was staring at me. The waitress would always reiterate the price of meals.

I actually felt pretty good.

Re: Classism in America

#139

Post by todd8 »

hyperliner wrote: post #136
todd8 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I'd rather be at the mall than mow my yard. I pay someone to do that. I'd rather be at the mall than work on my own plumbing. I pay someone else to do that. The key point is that at some level I'd rather be at the mall that work as a software developer, but I'm really good at that so that's what I do instead of goofing off at the mall all day. We should do what we are most productive at, in this way we contribute…

But how do you know you are not a better soldier? Assuming you are in the USA, there is no mandatory military service. Who is to say you are not great one, but you just don't know? On another angle, the point is not about being a soldier specifically. How about doing intelligence, or translation, or manufacturing, or X, or Y, or Z for the purpose of fulfilling whatever mission the President has decided is important?…

Yes, now I see what you are saying.

By the way, here in the USA when I was 18 there was a mandatory draft that sent some people to fight in Vietnam while others, like myself were lucky enough to get high numbers in a national lottery (that only men were subjected to) so I was not forced to go fight.

Re: Classism in America

#140

Post by lagadu »

WalterBright wrote: post #130
henrikschroder wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a spo…

> and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make. Are you sure that isn't an act? People pretend socially acceptable emotions all the time. If they donated the excess to the IRS (the IRS accepts donations!), I'd be a bit less skeptical.

> Are you sure that isn't an act?

It isn't. I'm from a economically below-average country in Europe, have lived in a couple others and I've settled down in the north. Almost none of my friends (particularly back home but here too) know how much I make because it's genuinely embarrassing. It's something of a "why do I make so much more when I'm no better than anyone else here?" feeling.

Also I know it's not just me, I see it around me from other people in both countries; the only people I've ever talked about it with was with other friends I know earn similarly to due to similar circumstances at the time.

edit: now that I think about it, while talking about earning a lot is generally shameful, discussing buying expensive things doesn't elicit the same feeling, despite being effectively the same.

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