Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history • Hacker News Board

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#81

Post by jcranmer » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

jbattle wrote: post #45

oinksoft wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's realistic. The Malagasy people are descendants of Polynesians who crossed the Indian Ocean to Madagascar, in canoes. With calm seas, there's no reason you couldn't make such a trip. Canoes can have sails too, and you can row your way out of the doldrums.

There's a big difference between coastwise travel in the Indian ocean and crossing the middle of the south atlantic. Even the big portuguese ships couldn't round the cape of good hope til what - the mid 1500's?. Also it's ~5200 miles from Madagascar to South America.

The Polynesians managed to sail and colonize Hawaii at least as early as 1000, as well as colonizing places like Rapa Nui or New Zealand from a starting point of Fiji (and themselves descended from the Melanesians who started from Indonesia). They also probably managed to make it to South America and back, given their use of the South American sweet potato as a major staple.

Hawaii, it should be noted, is a clear contender for "most remote place on the planet", given the lack of even small islands outside of the Hawaiian island channels for thousands of miles.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#82

Post by hinkley » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:32 PM UTC

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #21

0x07c0 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thor Heyerdahl had this theory , Columbus did not go to Norway but his family is of the Norwegian Nobel Bonde family. They lost a power struggle, and had to go abroad, to Genova . This as I recall is based on a book written by a family member of Columbus, think the brother(if he had one). Stating that the name of the family is not from Italy, but it a Latinifaction of the original language from where the family is fr…

Of course a famous Norwegian thinks Columbus is Scandinavian! I'm reminded of the phrase Samuel Eliot Morrison used in his books on the European Discovery of America-"Scandinavery". Its about as realistic as the "runes" discovered in the midwest in the late 19th century. There's a bit of a cottage industry in the US of various ethnic groups either claiming Columbus was really one of their own, or claiming that some o…

I think the Polynesians have the best claim on discovering the Americas, at this point.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#83

Post by losteric » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:44 PM UTC

Jonathanks wrote: post #66

douche wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in the 3rd century BCE, Eratothenes calculated a fairly accurate circumference of the earth. I don't know how widely accepted this measurement was, but, given that measurement, and the general distribution of land vs ocean observed by the ancients, it's not a huge stretch to assume that there must be something out there on the other side of the world. Some of the early world maps were remarkably accurate, at le…

There are similar accounts in that book and it all seemed not-so-extraordinary until I got to the accounts of maps that described features of Antarctica. Whether it's true or a hoax, the human mind is amazing. The book contains accounts of evidence of tides of human civilization: planned cities in Pakistan, well-developed waste management systems, advanced ship building and navigation (for the time they lived), possi…

> planned cities in Pakistan, well-developed waste management systems, advanced ship building, [...] nuclear weapons

One of these is not like the other...

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#84

Post by Florin_Andrei » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:49 PM UTC

0x07c0 wrote: post #16

jernfrost wrote: post #5

I am more interested in whether there is any way of find a connection between Columbus and the Vikings. I've read stories before about how Columbus went to Norway and got info there about the Viking exploration. But what I've read just seemed like wild speculation then. Something more solid would have been nice. The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't…

Thor Heyerdahl had this theory , Columbus did not go to Norway but his family is of the Norwegian Nobel Bonde family. They lost a power struggle, and had to go abroad, to Genova . This as I recall is based on a book written by a family member of Columbus, think the brother(if he had one). Stating that the name of the family is not from Italy, but it a Latinifaction of the original language from where the family is fr…

Heyerdahl was a man of extraordinary capability, but he had a tendency to go off on wild tangents once in a while. It's interesting how those wild tangents were, in a sense, what fueled some of his more spectacular projects.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#85

Post by euyyn » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #62

Jonathanks wrote: post #57

I'm not very knowledgeable in history but I find this interesting: In his book, "We Are Not The First (Riddles of Ancient Science)", Andrew Tomas argued for a possible knowledge of the existence of other continents, particularly North America, by the ancients. He writes: "Plato must have been cognizant of the great size of our globe, and of other continents, because he said in Phaedo that the Mediterranean people occ…

Well, in the 3rd century BCE, Eratothenes calculated a fairly accurate circumference of the earth. I don't know how widely accepted this measurement was, but, given that measurement, and the general distribution of land vs ocean observed by the ancients, it's not a huge stretch to assume that there must be something out there on the other side of the world. Some of the early world maps were remarkably accurate, at le…

> the general distribution of land vs ocean observed by the ancients

Nobody had crossed the Ocean Sea before. So if they were reasonable enough, they'd understand that the general distribution of land vs ocean they were seeing relied on them standing on the land part (vs in the middle of a potentially empty Ocean).

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#86

Post by WhoBeI » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 7:08 PM UTC

gooserock wrote: post #73

If you want to know more about the Norse accounts of America and how their presence in Newfoundland was originally discovered, I recommend listening to my podcast - the Born Yesterday podcast - about it. It's one of my best episodes, I think: http://bornyesterdaypodcast.com/#episode5

Very nice. Well done and lots of information.

I'll be back. Particularly interested in the stuff about South American history because, well, I don't know much about it beyond the genocides and events connected to them.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#87

Post by s_q_b » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 7:16 PM UTC

s_q_b wrote: post #58

jernfrost wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit strange though. I don't know what the Mali technology level was at the time but I would assume Vikings had far more advance ship and navigation technology as they are well known for that and it is well documented their extensive travels elsewhere in the world. Of course pretty much everybody claims to have been in America from Moroccans, Chinese to Irish. But still we only got solid evidence that the Vikings we…

I would not bet that West African technology in the Middle Ages was leagues ahead of West African technology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire Viking ships weren't that advanced. What they could do was navigate at sea better than their contemporaries, incredibly fierce armies that understood the phalanx, and by far most importantly, ships that were both seaworthy (for short spells), and had a shallow draft,…

*better than European

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#88

Post by s_q_b » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 7:57 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #36

INTPenis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court kn…

> Just so I'm clear, an african kingdom traded and waged war with people in south america before Columbus sailed there. This is at least the claim. Sorry but with what boat technology would the folks from this African Kingdom cross the Atlantic ? I seriously doubt a canoe is realistic - because it if were, America would have been discovered by numerous countries thousands of years earlier.

At the height of its extent in 1350, the Mali Empire was second only to the Mongol Empire in size, power, and population.

Their possession of North Arab ship-building techniques, understanding of Greek geometry and mathematics, and knowledge of navigation makes it at least plausible they reached the Americas.

Given that the islands throughout the Pacific were colonized by repeated expeditions via sea canoe, it seems downright possible.

Unfortunately, that's where the evidence falls flat. Given that only four of the thousands of written Maya codices survived, there's no written record.

Given the environment, the ecosystem has reclaimed much of the land where the cities in question stood, ruling out most access to sites that may hold physical evidence.

The Mali Empire is also so poorly studied that even if we found a full Mali site in South America, it would be very difficult to recognize from above, even with state-of-the-art LIDAR to see through the vegetation.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#89

Post by WalterBright » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 9:36 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #80

Jonathanks wrote: post #57

I'm not very knowledgeable in history but I find this interesting: In his book, "We Are Not The First (Riddles of Ancient Science)", Andrew Tomas argued for a possible knowledge of the existence of other continents, particularly North America, by the ancients. He writes: "Plato must have been cognizant of the great size of our globe, and of other continents, because he said in Phaedo that the Mediterranean people occ…

Eratosthenes is credited with accurately predicting the circumference of the earth, but he was about a century after Plato. But any coastal population must have known the curvature of the earth by basic empirical analysis of maritime traffic. In other words, watching the fishing boats disappear over the horizon.

Any sailor knew that, because they navigated lattitudonally by looking at the altitude of various stars above the horizon.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#90

Post by runarberg » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #30

parennoob wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't help European discovery in any way. In my opinion, this is an incredibly narrow-minded view. Native Americans and pretty much the rest of humans were two branches of the human race that had almost been cut off from each other, and re-united after more than 10000 years. Showing the time and extent of this first…

There's evidence as others have pointed out of African expeditions and I've read about evidence of Chinese and Polynesian contact with South America so I'm not sure it was quite as drastic a gulf as you propose.

Not to mention numerous migrations over the Bering, one of the most resent, the Inuit migration, happened around the same time as the Norse explorations.