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Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

independent.co.uk

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Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#61
post #9

"The unearthing of a stone used in iron working on Newfoundland, hundreds of miles south from the only known Viking site in North America, suggests the Vikings may have traveled much further into the continent than previously thought." Newfoundland is an island! I understand that there may be an implicit assumption that they most likely had to touch the continent before getting there but this isn't neither a fact (on…

> Newfoundland is an island! I understand that there may be an implicit assumption that they most likely had to touch the continent before getting there but this isn't neither a fact (only a speculation) nor "much further into the continent".

Then look to the Icelanders that made repeated trips over hundreds of years to the east coast of Canada (Labrador coast) for timber & trade with the locals. Newfoundland is interesting because it was a permanent settlement, however brief.

But by that logic I suppose we should stop considering British history to be part of the European tradition.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#62

I'm not very knowledgeable in history but I find this interesting: In his book, "We Are Not The First (Riddles of Ancient Science)", Andrew Tomas argued for a possible knowledge of the existence of other continents, particularly North America, by the ancients. He writes: "Plato must have been cognizant of the great size of our globe, and of other continents, because he said in Phaedo that the Mediterranean people occ…

Well, in the 3rd century BCE, Eratothenes calculated a fairly accurate circumference of the earth. I don't know how widely accepted this measurement was, but, given that measurement, and the general distribution of land vs ocean observed by the ancients, it's not a huge stretch to assume that there must be something out there on the other side of the world. Some of the early world maps were remarkably accurate, at least for the areas that were well-known to the geographers, even given the very limited tools at their disposal[1].

There's also the curious case of the apparent Roman-era shipwreck that was discovered off the coast of Brazil[2]. It's a little tinfoil-hatty, and possibly a hoax, but it is interesting.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps

[2] http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1042040/pg1

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit strange though. I don't know what the Mali technology level was at the time but I would assume Vikings had far more advance ship and navigation technology as they are well known for that and it is well documented their extensive travels elsewhere in the world. Of course pretty much everybody claims to have been in America from Moroccans, Chinese to Irish. But still we only got solid evidence that the Vikings we…

Espacially since Mali has no see access, at least in it's current borders.

The current borders are irrelevant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire#/media/File:WestAf...

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Can you recommend a book about this?

I recently finished 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created. http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created... Highly recommended!

But please do start with 1492, also very excellent.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#65
post #29
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems doubtful, simply because of the really, really small numbers of Norse that ever would have been in North America. Between the stories in the Sagas and the size of L'Anse aux Meadows, I would bet that you could put the ceiling on the number of Scandinavians who set foot in Vinland before 1500 at about a thousand, being generous.

It would be diffuclt to test as the Beothuk (the native people who lived on Newfoundland) sadly have been extinct for a while. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beothuk

Ah... thanks for the link, because ...

>In 2010, a team of European researchers announced the discovery of a previously unknown mitochondrial DNA sequence in Iceland, which they further suggest may have New World origins. If the latter is true, one possible explanation for its appearance in modern Iceland would be from the capture and removal of a Native American woman, possibly a Beothuk

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#66
post #62

I'm not very knowledgeable in history but I find this interesting: In his book, "We Are Not The First (Riddles of Ancient Science)", Andrew Tomas argued for a possible knowledge of the existence of other continents, particularly North America, by the ancients. He writes: "Plato must have been cognizant of the great size of our globe, and of other continents, because he said in Phaedo that the Mediterranean people occ…

Well, in the 3rd century BCE, Eratothenes calculated a fairly accurate circumference of the earth. I don't know how widely accepted this measurement was, but, given that measurement, and the general distribution of land vs ocean observed by the ancients, it's not a huge stretch to assume that there must be something out there on the other side of the world. Some of the early world maps were remarkably accurate, at le…

There are similar accounts in that book and it all seemed not-so-extraordinary until I got to the accounts of maps that described features of Antarctica. Whether it's true or a hoax, the human mind is amazing. The book contains accounts of evidence of tides of human civilization: planned cities in Pakistan, well-developed waste management systems, advanced ship building and navigation (for the time they lived), possible advances in weapons and warfare, including nuclear weapons (evidence in an Indian desert and writings describing a nuclear explosion), writings describing space travel and some other marvels of the ancient world.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#67

I'm not very knowledgeable in history but I find this interesting: In his book, "We Are Not The First (Riddles of Ancient Science)", Andrew Tomas argued for a possible knowledge of the existence of other continents, particularly North America, by the ancients. He writes: "Plato must have been cognizant of the great size of our globe, and of other continents, because he said in Phaedo that the Mediterranean people occ…

"Plato must have been cognizant of the great size of our globe, and of other continents, because he said in Phaedo that the Mediterranean people occupied 'only a small portion of the earth'"

I think it is more likely he drew that conclusion because he knew you could go quite a bit north in Europe, south in Africa and east in Asia. Those are all things you probably could learn from talks to merchants.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't help European discovery in any way. In my opinion, this is an incredibly narrow-minded view. Native Americans and pretty much the rest of humans were two branches of the human race that had almost been cut off from each other, and re-united after more than 10000 years. Showing the time and extent of this first…

I don't know what your metric for significance is, but for me it is related to the extent of change of history it causes. A Viking discovery which did not influence Columbus in any way is IMO of tiny significance, because whether it happened or not would have made no impact on history. Colombus discovery of America in contrast caused a dramatic change to development of world history. It could be claimed it was one of…

[deleted]

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#69
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is interesting. How do we know about that though, and just to speculate they could have been influenced by Viking discoveries of the same fishing areas.

Tax records.

Captains of the era were known for keeping meticulous navigational and meteorological records. Did this hold true even for those indulging in secret activities?

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#70
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're so interested in details like that, then you surely know that humans were on North America thousands of years before the Norse, so the Norse didn't "discover" America any more than John Cabot or Christopher Columbus did. (Of course, you are using a different definition of discover; more like how I discovered a great hamburger restaurant in town, even though many others knew of it. I am highlighting how one…

I think discovery always has to relate to its impact with respect to a society. E.g. when a biologist discovers a plant, it is about categorizing it, describing it and publishing his/her findings. That people in the area already know and use the plant isn't really relevant in this context. Likewise from a European perspective or from the perspective of everybody else not living in north and south America Columbus mad…

I read this as a criticism of something I didn't actually write or intend.

I said there are often multiple meanings, and correct understanding requires knowing that there are multiple valid meanings, and knowing the context enough to select the intended one. Remember, restalis started by complaining that "continent" should not include islands. I pointed out that there are multiple definitions for continent, including widely used ones which include islands.

restalis then argued that the Norse discovered America by reaching western Iceland, which is on the North American plate. Now, I happen to believe that many people discovered America, for different definitions of "discover" and "America". Some definitions are more useful and appropriate than others.

My response was meant to highlight that it's unwise to insist on one of several correct definitions of "continent" then turn around and use a non-standard definition of "discovered America" which is more like "first European to set foot on land on the North American plate." Nor do I think it's a useful definition.

You want to use the more standard definition, which is Euro centric for the reasons you described. I'm also fine with that definition. My point has always been that there are multiple definitions with different cultural contexts. I don't think it makes sense to complain about one usage by pulling it out of a valid context and insisting it must fit into another context.

You seem to have interpreted my counter-example as an insistence that it is the only possible counter-example. I mentioned it because restalis' definition used "North American Plate". I needed something which pre-dated the Norse settlement of Iceland. I realize now that I could have pointed to the the pre-Norse Celtic monks on Iceland, though that just shows that there are multiple objections to restalis' new definition, not that mine is fundamentally wrong.

I think you will have no problems in saying that Leif Erikson and his extended family discovered Newfoundland? Vinland and Markland did affect Norse society on Greenland, and the Norse spread knowledge of it, which we still know about through the sagas and in the Descriptio insularum Aquilonis. By your own definition, the Norse discovered America, yes?

If the Norse did not discover America, when do you think Columbus did? 1492, when he and his crew found some islands and returned to Europe to report? Or the third voyage, when Columbus was at the mouth of the Orinoco and surmised there was a large land mass to be discovered? Or when Amerigo Vespucci demonstrated that it was a new continent, and not part of Asia? I think all three can be applicable moments of discovery.

Even in the scientific literature, discoveries are made multiple times. The Cooley–Tukey algorithm for FFT, for example, was described by Gauss, though his posthumous publication was not influential. In my own field, we use the "Tanimoto similarity" based indirectly on work Tanimoto did in the 1950s, even though "Jaccard index" is the more widely used term and Jaccard published in the 1910s.

History is complicated.

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