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Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

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Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#51
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's realistic. The Malagasy people are descendants of Polynesians who crossed the Indian Ocean to Madagascar, in canoes. With calm seas, there's no reason you couldn't make such a trip. Canoes can have sails too, and you can row your way out of the doldrums.

But the route from Polynesia to Madagascar can be traveled along the shoreline of Asia and Africa, so can be completed without navigational aides. The crossing from Africa to South America is 3000 km of nothing but ocean.

According to their oral history, they went clear across the ocean. My source is "A History of Madagascar" by Mervyn Brown (2001) and it could be incorrect, I didn't seek out the primary sources.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#52
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's realistic. The Malagasy people are descendants of Polynesians who crossed the Indian Ocean to Madagascar, in canoes. With calm seas, there's no reason you couldn't make such a trip. Canoes can have sails too, and you can row your way out of the doldrums.

There's a big difference between coastwise travel in the Indian ocean and crossing the middle of the south atlantic. Even the big portuguese ships couldn't round the cape of good hope til what - the mid 1500's?. Also it's ~5200 miles from Madagascar to South America.

Mali is on the west coast of Africa, so such an ocean crossing would not require rounding the Cape. They're also well-situated to take advantage of trade winds, and are at the point of the narrowest middle Atlantic crossing. So it's not so far-fetched that they could have made these trips.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#53
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thor Heyerdahl had this theory , Columbus did not go to Norway but his family is of the Norwegian Nobel Bonde family. They lost a power struggle, and had to go abroad, to Genova . This as I recall is based on a book written by a family member of Columbus, think the brother(if he had one). Stating that the name of the family is not from Italy, but it a Latinifaction of the original language from where the family is fr…

Of course a famous Norwegian thinks Columbus is Scandinavian! I'm reminded of the phrase Samuel Eliot Morrison used in his books on the European Discovery of America-"Scandinavery". Its about as realistic as the "runes" discovered in the midwest in the late 19th century. There's a bit of a cottage industry in the US of various ethnic groups either claiming Columbus was really one of their own, or claiming that some o…

I don't think Scandinavians have any desire to claim Columbus. Now the Portuguese conspiracy to claim Eiriksson on the other hand...

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court kn…

Interesting. Can you recommend a book about this?

I recently finished 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created. http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created...

Highly recommended!

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#55

I am more interested in whether there is any way of find a connection between Columbus and the Vikings. I've read stories before about how Columbus went to Norway and got info there about the Viking exploration. But what I've read just seemed like wild speculation then. Something more solid would have been nice. The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't…

> The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't help European discovery in any way. In my opinion, this is an incredibly narrow-minded view. Native Americans and pretty much the rest of humans were two branches of the human race that had almost been cut off from each other, and re-united after more than 10000 years. Showing the time and extent of this first…

First contact may have infected that continent with virulent European pathogens.

Recent discoveries suggest the Americas were vastly more populated but wiped out by viruses.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302...

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court kn…

A bit strange though. I don't know what the Mali technology level was at the time but I would assume Vikings had far more advance ship and navigation technology as they are well known for that and it is well documented their extensive travels elsewhere in the world. Of course pretty much everybody claims to have been in America from Moroccans, Chinese to Irish. But still we only got solid evidence that the Vikings we…

Espacially since Mali has no see access, at least in it's current borders.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#57
I'm not very knowledgeable in history but I find this interesting: In his book, "We Are Not The First (Riddles of Ancient Science)", Andrew Tomas argued for a possible knowledge of the existence of other continents, particularly North America, by the ancients. He writes: "Plato must have been cognizant of the great size of our globe, and of other continents, because he said in Phaedo that the Mediterranean people occupied 'only a small portion of the earth'. 'Besides the world we inhabit, there may be one or more other worlds peopled by beings different from ourselves,' wrote Strabo (1st century BC). He even mentioned that if the parallel of Athens were extended westward---across the Atlantic, these other races might live there in the temperate zone, clearly alluding to North America. ... Did the scholars of antiquity know about America? Seneca (1st century), the tragedian, confirms this supposition by his famous verse in the Medea: There shall come a time When the bands of Ocean Shall be loosened, And the vast Earth shall be laid open, Another Tiphys shall disclose new worlds, And lands shall be seen beyond Thules.

New lands 'beyond Thules', or Iceland, could be nothing but Greenland and North America."

That's inspiring. So, before the Vikings, the New World wasn't an impossibility. It was in fact as old as any other point on Earth.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court kn…

A bit strange though. I don't know what the Mali technology level was at the time but I would assume Vikings had far more advance ship and navigation technology as they are well known for that and it is well documented their extensive travels elsewhere in the world. Of course pretty much everybody claims to have been in America from Moroccans, Chinese to Irish. But still we only got solid evidence that the Vikings we…

I would not bet that West African technology in the Middle Ages was leagues ahead of West African technology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire

Viking ships weren't that advanced. What they could do was navigate at sea better than their contemporaries, incredibly fierce armies that understood the phalanx, and by far most importantly, ships that were both seaworthy (for short spells), and had a shallow draft, which allowed them to sale up rivers.

The Mali Empire left written records, clearly had more seaworthy ships, and some strange ambition with regard to the Atlantic. These are the basic undisputed facts.

Then there are the Mali expeditions into the Atlantic. Consider,

"The last Kolonkan ruler, Bata Manding Bory Keita, was crowned Mansa Abubakari Keita II in 1310. He continued the non-militant style of rule that characterized Gao and Mohammed ibn Gao Keita, but was interested in the empire's western sea.

According to an account given by Mansa Musa Keita I, who during the reign of Abubakari Keita II served as the mansa's kankoro-sigui, Mali sent two expeditions into the Atlantic.

Mansa Abubakari Keita II left Musa Keita as regent of the empire, demonstrating the stability of this period in Mali, and departed with the second expedition commanding some 4,000 pirogues equipped with both oars and sails in 1311.

Neither the emperor nor any of the ships returned to Mali. Modern historians and scientists are skeptical about the success of either voyage, but the account of these happenings is preserved in both written North African records and the oral records of Mali's djelis."

There's also very odd sculptures from around that time that suggest cross-pollination of native culture with African and Arab cultural practices, including ear-shaping and gauge earrings, which made widespread appearances in the Mali Empire and South America in the same time period. (1200-1300)

The Mali Empire also had far larger ocean-going vessels, more knowledge of celestial navigation (although not the semi-mythical "sun stone" technology), and wrote down epics that seem every bit as credible as the Viking sagas.

Someday I suspect we'll identify little dots of attempted colonies by various cultures in North America. I remember when the Viking visits were considered "racist myths."

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#59
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more probable connection for Columbus would be the Basque cod fishermen that were fishing off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland years before he sailed the ocean blue.

That is interesting. How do we know about that though, and just to speculate they could have been influenced by Viking discoveries of the same fishing areas.

Tax records.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't help European discovery in any way. In my opinion, this is an incredibly narrow-minded view. Native Americans and pretty much the rest of humans were two branches of the human race that had almost been cut off from each other, and re-united after more than 10000 years. Showing the time and extent of this first…

There's evidence as others have pointed out of African expeditions and I've read about evidence of Chinese and Polynesian contact with South America so I'm not sure it was quite as drastic a gulf as you propose.

I did mention the possibility of Polynesian contact in my comment. But neither this nor the Chinese contact has been comprehensively proved, especially not with archaeological evidence.
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