Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course it's realistic. The Malagasy people are descendants of Polynesians who crossed the Indian Ocean to Madagascar, in canoes. With calm seas, there's no reason you couldn't make such a trip. Canoes can have sails too, and you can row your way out of the doldrums.
But the route from Polynesia to Madagascar can be traveled along the shoreline of Asia and Africa, so can be completed without navigational aides. The crossing from Africa to South America is 3000 km of nothing but ocean.
Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history
51–60 of 93 posts
Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course it's realistic. The Malagasy people are descendants of Polynesians who crossed the Indian Ocean to Madagascar, in canoes. With calm seas, there's no reason you couldn't make such a trip. Canoes can have sails too, and you can row your way out of the doldrums.
There's a big difference between coastwise travel in the Indian ocean and crossing the middle of the south atlantic. Even the big portuguese ships couldn't round the cape of good hope til what - the mid 1500's?. Also it's ~5200 miles from Madagascar to South America.
Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thor Heyerdahl had this theory , Columbus did not go to Norway but his family is of the Norwegian Nobel Bonde family. They lost a power struggle, and had to go abroad, to Genova . This as I recall is based on a book written by a family member of Columbus, think the brother(if he had one). Stating that the name of the family is not from Italy, but it a Latinifaction of the original language from where the family is fr…
Of course a famous Norwegian thinks Columbus is Scandinavian! I'm reminded of the phrase Samuel Eliot Morrison used in his books on the European Discovery of America-"Scandinavery". Its about as realistic as the "runes" discovered in the midwest in the late 19th century. There's a bit of a cottage industry in the US of various ethnic groups either claiming Columbus was really one of their own, or claiming that some o…
Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court kn…
Interesting. Can you recommend a book about this?
Highly recommended!
Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history
#55I am more interested in whether there is any way of find a connection between Columbus and the Vikings. I've read stories before about how Columbus went to Norway and got info there about the Viking exploration. But what I've read just seemed like wild speculation then. Something more solid would have been nice. The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't…
> The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't help European discovery in any way. In my opinion, this is an incredibly narrow-minded view. Native Americans and pretty much the rest of humans were two branches of the human race that had almost been cut off from each other, and re-united after more than 10000 years. Showing the time and extent of this first…
Recent discoveries suggest the Americas were vastly more populated but wiped out by viruses.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302...
Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court kn…
A bit strange though. I don't know what the Mali technology level was at the time but I would assume Vikings had far more advance ship and navigation technology as they are well known for that and it is well documented their extensive travels elsewhere in the world. Of course pretty much everybody claims to have been in America from Moroccans, Chinese to Irish. But still we only got solid evidence that the Vikings we…
Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history
#57New lands 'beyond Thules', or Iceland, could be nothing but Greenland and North America."
That's inspiring. So, before the Vikings, the New World wasn't an impossibility. It was in fact as old as any other point on Earth.
Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court kn…
A bit strange though. I don't know what the Mali technology level was at the time but I would assume Vikings had far more advance ship and navigation technology as they are well known for that and it is well documented their extensive travels elsewhere in the world. Of course pretty much everybody claims to have been in America from Moroccans, Chinese to Irish. But still we only got solid evidence that the Vikings we…
Viking ships weren't that advanced. What they could do was navigate at sea better than their contemporaries, incredibly fierce armies that understood the phalanx, and by far most importantly, ships that were both seaworthy (for short spells), and had a shallow draft, which allowed them to sale up rivers.
The Mali Empire left written records, clearly had more seaworthy ships, and some strange ambition with regard to the Atlantic. These are the basic undisputed facts.
Then there are the Mali expeditions into the Atlantic. Consider,
"The last Kolonkan ruler, Bata Manding Bory Keita, was crowned Mansa Abubakari Keita II in 1310. He continued the non-militant style of rule that characterized Gao and Mohammed ibn Gao Keita, but was interested in the empire's western sea.
According to an account given by Mansa Musa Keita I, who during the reign of Abubakari Keita II served as the mansa's kankoro-sigui, Mali sent two expeditions into the Atlantic.
Mansa Abubakari Keita II left Musa Keita as regent of the empire, demonstrating the stability of this period in Mali, and departed with the second expedition commanding some 4,000 pirogues equipped with both oars and sails in 1311.
Neither the emperor nor any of the ships returned to Mali. Modern historians and scientists are skeptical about the success of either voyage, but the account of these happenings is preserved in both written North African records and the oral records of Mali's djelis."
There's also very odd sculptures from around that time that suggest cross-pollination of native culture with African and Arab cultural practices, including ear-shaping and gauge earrings, which made widespread appearances in the Mali Empire and South America in the same time period. (1200-1300)
The Mali Empire also had far larger ocean-going vessels, more knowledge of celestial navigation (although not the semi-mythical "sun stone" technology), and wrote down epics that seem every bit as credible as the Viking sagas.
Someday I suspect we'll identify little dots of attempted colonies by various cultures in North America. I remember when the Viking visits were considered "racist myths."
Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the more probable connection for Columbus would be the Basque cod fishermen that were fishing off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland years before he sailed the ocean blue.
That is interesting. How do we know about that though, and just to speculate they could have been influenced by Viking discoveries of the same fishing areas.
Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't help European discovery in any way. In my opinion, this is an incredibly narrow-minded view. Native Americans and pretty much the rest of humans were two branches of the human race that had almost been cut off from each other, and re-united after more than 10000 years. Showing the time and extent of this first…
There's evidence as others have pointed out of African expeditions and I've read about evidence of Chinese and Polynesian contact with South America so I'm not sure it was quite as drastic a gulf as you propose.