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How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

washingtonpost.com

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Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#51

Post by webjprgm »

jnbiche wrote: post #38
Govannon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it. Arguably in a democracy we Americans should all be blaming ourselves for that. Because of the whole voting/paying attention/holding elected officials accountable thing. The Federal Government is representative of our collective ability to do that well, plus our historic ability to do that well I suppose.

> Arguably in a democracy we Americans should all be blaming ourselves for that. I'll accept the blame for spending so many years falling for the two-party system. For that I'll take my blame. But for voting for candidates who turned out to be nothing like they presented themselves? Who outright and repeatedly lied during election season? (and here I'm talking about more than just the presidential level) I'm a reason…

Booted out by whom? The board of directors votes. Well, that is We the People who have to vote in this case.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#52

Post by webjprgm »

ekianjo wrote: post #41
enlightenedfool wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will get worse when electorate instead of choosing the right candidates, chooses the more electable ones. The constitution cannot provide safeguard against ill-informed electorate. Not just the US, applies to any democracy. Most democracies have similar awesome constitution texts.

One of the key issues in elections is that candidates promise stuff to specific interest groups - which is basically the same thing as buying votes (with future government funds, on top of that). That kind of behaviour should be explicitly forbidden and should be prosecuted because it actively damages Democracy.

It would be interesting if candidates were not allowed to promise what they would do, but merely campaign on their morals and good standing in the community so we can pick people who would make intelligent decisions but not necessarily ones that would choose a specific way on a specific issue. That's what you're asking for here.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#53

Post by [deleted] »

kstenerud wrote: post #50
darawk wrote: post #44

To be honest, nothing about this seems particularly bad. It seems like circumstantially there was some evidence that he may have been a spy, the government executed a FISA warrant on the basis of that belief, and then found evidence of child porn. I'm not generally a fan of secret warrants or broad search and seizure powers, but this really doesn't strike me as a particularly bad case. This seems, by and large, like…

Until you get to the money shot: "During his initial appearance in a federal courthouse in Santa Ana, Calif., the prosecutors indicated a willingness to reduce or drop the child pornography charges if he would tell them about the C-17, said Sara Naheedy, Gartenlaub’s attorney at the time." No evidence of downloading the porn. No evidence of viewing the porn. The only way, according to their own experts, is if someone…

[deleted]

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#54

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

ekianjo wrote: post #37
Govannon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it. Arguably in a democracy we Americans should all be blaming ourselves for that. Because of the whole voting/paying attention/holding elected officials accountable thing. The Federal Government is representative of our collective ability to do that well, plus our historic ability to do that well I suppose.

> Arguably in a democracy we Americans should all be blaming ourselves for that Maybe as a nation if you consider that the term makes any sense, but for the most part this has started to happen before most Americans alive today were born. Like always there is not a single date in History where you can pinpoint a decisive moment where the Constitution was destroyed, it's been a progressive and "death by thousands cuts…

I would argue that date was in 1917, when President Wildon founded the Committee on Public Information to sell WWI to Americans. The committee then hired Edward Bernays, who was struck by the ability for war to motivate people, and used his uncle Sigmund Freud's theories on psychoanalysis to contrive ways to get people to do or buy things they normally wouldn't.

The stunning success of psychologically tuned propaganda taught generations of political masterminds how to not only rile up the public to make big changes, but to structure society as a disconnected atomized collection of individuals too caught up with their own lives and consumerism to seriously challenge the powers that be. From then on, it becomes easier and easier to circumvent the constitution and even basic ethics because people are less likely to care for longer than a news cycle.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#55

Post by SeanDav »

If, during the entire history of the USA, some FBI agents had never been proven to be corrupt, if judges had never been proven to be corrupt, if evidence had never been proved to be planted by authorities, then maybe, just maybe this would be justified.

In the real world, however, this is very, very scary and I consider myself lucky I am not subject to this travesty.

Since there does not appear to be any proof that he downloaded the images, or was involved in any way, other than pictures being found on various hard drives, it is quite plausible to me that the FBI/NSA/CIA planted evidence in order to blackmail him.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#56

Post by apeace »

tptacek wrote: post #10
ekianjo wrote: post #2

> In Gartenlaub’s case, the government made sealed filings, so neither the defense nor the public was able to see them. Based on the secret filings, the judge held that the government had shown probable cause that the house to be searched belonged to “an agent of a foreign power." That's typically what you read about foreign police states.

It is, but isn't it also the case that secret court filings are as old as the US courts? How else would espionage prosecutions work? Similarly, how would complicated organized crime investigations work without secrecy? Isn't the alternative that prosecutors get exactly one bite at the apple, and if they're wrong, the target of the investigation is tipped off? The case that ultimately appears before the court, of cour…

> The case that ultimately appears before the court, of course, needs to be transparent. And the evidence collected by the prosecution must be made available to the defendant. But this isn't that.

This is that. The defense is being told that there was probable cause to issue a search warrant, but they are not being told what the cause was and are not allowed to see the warrant.

They have to take the government's word that the defendant's rights aren't being violated. Not how our court system is supposed to work!

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#57

Post by drzaiusapelord »

webjprgm wrote: post #45
darawk wrote: post #44

To be honest, nothing about this seems particularly bad. It seems like circumstantially there was some evidence that he may have been a spy, the government executed a FISA warrant on the basis of that belief, and then found evidence of child porn. I'm not generally a fan of secret warrants or broad search and seizure powers, but this really doesn't strike me as a particularly bad case. This seems, by and large, like…

The article has one sentence about the videos being on a beach house computer that someone else could have used. So just from this article it is unclear exactly how damming that evidence is, but it is possible it was not his fault that the illegal videos were on his computers. So first suspicion and second being charged for something he didn't do but could not get out of because he didn't have access to all the legal…

> but it is possible it was not his fault that the illegal videos were on his computers.

So? His home may have been searched for other reasons to discover this. Just like anyone else found with these materials on his computer, he'll have to get arrested and go to court over them.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#58

Post by kazagistar »

webjprgm wrote: post #49
X86BSD wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain — that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

Democracy is a form of government that can destroy itself. The French voted to put in an emperor their first time around. So we may have a good constitution but if the people vote to make bad laws that break it, and permit those laws to function, then it is the people's fault, not the founder's fault.

I mean, the binary choice clusterfuck that is modern politics is certainly the fault of the founders, and is certainly partially responsible for the current problems. And because of the reverence of the founders and the constitution as it exists, the self destruction and rebirth is looking likelier then meaningfully repairing the system.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#59

Post by webjprgm »

cnfjdnncd wrote: post #34
delinka wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To where? What government on the planet doesn't have this kind of power over its country's citizens? Of the governments you can list, how many of those countries actually have civilization where a non-native wouldn't have to fear for their lives?

Iceland has a very good record with human rights and properly functioning democratic representation. Some of the Nordic states are trailing runners up.

Isn't Iceland going through a national financial crisis and also just booted their president for lying to them? That doesn't sound much better.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#60

Post by webjprgm »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #57
webjprgm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article has one sentence about the videos being on a beach house computer that someone else could have used. So just from this article it is unclear exactly how damming that evidence is, but it is possible it was not his fault that the illegal videos were on his computers. So first suspicion and second being charged for something he didn't do but could not get out of because he didn't have access to all the legal…

> but it is possible it was not his fault that the illegal videos were on his computers. So? His home may have been searched for other reasons to discover this. Just like anyone else found with these materials on his computer, he'll have to get arrested and go to court over them.

Which he did, but then his defense was hampered by the secrecy around how the evidence was obtained. At least the article makes it sound like this.
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