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How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

washingtonpost.com

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Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#21

Post by fiatmoney »

tptacek wrote: post #10
ekianjo wrote: post #2

> In Gartenlaub’s case, the government made sealed filings, so neither the defense nor the public was able to see them. Based on the secret filings, the judge held that the government had shown probable cause that the house to be searched belonged to “an agent of a foreign power." That's typically what you read about foreign police states.

It is, but isn't it also the case that secret court filings are as old as the US courts? How else would espionage prosecutions work? Similarly, how would complicated organized crime investigations work without secrecy? Isn't the alternative that prosecutors get exactly one bite at the apple, and if they're wrong, the target of the investigation is tipped off? The case that ultimately appears before the court, of cour…

"Secret court filings" that are hidden from the defense during a trial are ridiculously uncommon. Sealed filings for, eg, warrants are common. They are typically made available to the defense & the public for the trial. Otherwise the evidence amounts to "trust us, we're the government".

In counter-espionage cases, it is very common for the government to balance concern about disclosing its methods with likelihood of a conviction. If they fuck up the investigation and tip off the target before the trial, or tip off other targets during the trial, it's not the court's job to give them a do-over.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#22

Post by delinka »

sneak wrote: post #14

Tell me again why well-off American programmers continue living in that country without the most basic of human rights? It's time to go. You can still access us-east-1 from the civilized bits of Europe, you know. It has now been between 2 and 10 years since the time where it became totally unreasonable to continue living there while other options are available to you. Don't wait until the trumped-up federal charges.…

To where? What government on the planet doesn't have this kind of power over its country's citizens? Of the governments you can list, how many of those countries actually have civilization where a non-native wouldn't have to fear for their lives?

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#23

Post by tptacek »

fiatmoney wrote: post #21
tptacek wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, but isn't it also the case that secret court filings are as old as the US courts? How else would espionage prosecutions work? Similarly, how would complicated organized crime investigations work without secrecy? Isn't the alternative that prosecutors get exactly one bite at the apple, and if they're wrong, the target of the investigation is tipped off? The case that ultimately appears before the court, of cour…

"Secret court filings" that are hidden from the defense during a trial are ridiculously uncommon. Sealed filings for, eg, warrants are common. They are typically made available to the defense & the public for the trial. Otherwise the evidence amounts to "trust us, we're the government". In counter-espionage cases, it is very common for the government to balance concern about disclosing its methods with likelihood of…

Yes. Am I misreading this case? It seems like evidence was furnished, and that the complaint here is that the original sealed warrant wasn't. The defense objects because the original FISA warrant could have been flawed, and if it was, the evidence deployed in the trial could have been excluded.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#24

Post by Govannon »

ekianjo wrote: post #12
nxzero wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might seem repeative or unwarrented, but to me, it's very clear that the... US is a police state.

More like, it has become like that. Because of complete disregard/disrespect for the US constitution. The constitution had numerous safeguards to restrict abuse of power, but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it.

>but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it. Arguably in a democracy we Americans should all be blaming ourselves for that. Because of the whole voting/paying attention/holding elected officials accountable thing. The Federal Government is representative of our collective ability to do that well, plus our historic ability to do that well I suppose.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#25

Post by tptacek »

tremon wrote: post #17
tptacek wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was any evidence withheld here? Or is it instead the case that the original FISA warrant was withheld (being part of a complicated counterespionage case), and the defense feels that given the full warrant, they might be able to defeat the search and have the CP evidence excluded?

That doesn't matter. If the government can't prove how it obtained the evidence, it also can't prove that it didn't manufacture said "evidence".

The government has explained how it obtained the evidence. That's not the basis of the defense's complaint.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#26

Post by tremon »

x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #20
sneak wrote: post #14

Tell me again why well-off American programmers continue living in that country without the most basic of human rights? It's time to go. You can still access us-east-1 from the civilized bits of Europe, you know. It has now been between 2 and 10 years since the time where it became totally unreasonable to continue living there while other options are available to you. Don't wait until the trumped-up federal charges.…

I honestly don't see any other "free" countries. Most lack a fundamental freedom of speech or a right to bear arms. Where is this utopia of freedom you think exists? As someone who's ancestors helped fight for and found this nation, it's hard for me to just give up on it.

So, you'd rather have weapons yourself than an accountable government? That explains a lot, I feel.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#27

Post by Spooky23 »

tptacek wrote: post #10
ekianjo wrote: post #2

> In Gartenlaub’s case, the government made sealed filings, so neither the defense nor the public was able to see them. Based on the secret filings, the judge held that the government had shown probable cause that the house to be searched belonged to “an agent of a foreign power." That's typically what you read about foreign police states.

It is, but isn't it also the case that secret court filings are as old as the US courts? How else would espionage prosecutions work? Similarly, how would complicated organized crime investigations work without secrecy? Isn't the alternative that prosecutors get exactly one bite at the apple, and if they're wrong, the target of the investigation is tipped off? The case that ultimately appears before the court, of cour…

There is a difference between a sealed proceeding and a secret proceeding.

With a sealed event, the judge is the barrier. With a secret event, you need to be in the priesthood of people cleared to know secrets to even ask about the matter.

Secrecy in effect makes information contraband. That's a problem in a criminal trial where the accused is presumed innocent.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#29

Post by coffeedean »

Filligree wrote: post #6
fweespee_ch wrote: post #4

> In Gartenlaub’s case, the government made sealed filings, so neither the defense nor the public was able to see them. Based on the secret filings, the judge held that the government had shown probable cause that the house to be searched belonged to “an agent of a foreign power” or a spy. > “The government is increasingly using national security tools to investigate domestic criminal ­cases, bypassing key constituti…

> During his initial appearance in a federal courthouse in Santa Ana, Calif., the prosecutors indicated a willingness to reduce or drop the child pornography charges if he would tell them about the C-17, said Sara Naheedy, Gartenlaub’s attorney at the time. Really? Really.

That is the key bit of the whole story. I can only imagine how many more cases have been handled like this, with drug crimes or tax evasion charges used instead of pornography.
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