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How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

washingtonpost.com

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Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#31

Post by BookmarkSaver »

sneak wrote: post #14

Tell me again why well-off American programmers continue living in that country without the most basic of human rights? It's time to go. You can still access us-east-1 from the civilized bits of Europe, you know. It has now been between 2 and 10 years since the time where it became totally unreasonable to continue living there while other options are available to you. Don't wait until the trumped-up federal charges.…

>that country without the most basic of human rights

Compared to where?

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#32

Post by fiatmoney »

tptacek wrote: post #23
fiatmoney wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Secret court filings" that are hidden from the defense during a trial are ridiculously uncommon. Sealed filings for, eg, warrants are common. They are typically made available to the defense & the public for the trial. Otherwise the evidence amounts to "trust us, we're the government". In counter-espionage cases, it is very common for the government to balance concern about disclosing its methods with likelihood of…

Yes. Am I misreading this case? It seems like evidence was furnished, and that the complaint here is that the original sealed warrant wasn't. The defense objects because the original FISA warrant could have been flawed, and if it was, the evidence deployed in the trial could have been excluded.

"Evidence" isn't just "the parts of the evidence the prosecution wanted to use".

How is the defense supposed to cross-examine the person who gathered the evidence when they can't investigate the circumstances under which it was gathered? How are they supposed to make a cogent argument that it was not a properly issued warrant unless they can see it? How are they supposed to argue that even if the the warrant was proper, the evidence gathered was not under the scope of the warrant? How are they supposed to get access to other exculpatory evidence that would have been collected under the warrant, that the prosecution declined to use?

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#33

Post by mholt »

tptacek wrote: post #13
mholt wrote: post #8

The main problem I see is this: > His attorney said his defense was hampered by an inability to obtain basic information about how the evidence was obtained and on what specific grounds the warrant was issued. Authorities can obtain secret warrants and conduct ordinary criminal investigations with it, conveniently withholding the evidence from the defense attorney on the grounds that it was obtained under FISA. So no…

Was any evidence withheld here? Or is it instead the case that the original FISA warrant was withheld (being part of a complicated counterespionage case), and the defense feels that given the full warrant, they might be able to defeat the search and have the CP evidence excluded?

I guess I meant "information about how the evidence was obtained." I just think blurring the lines between two totally separate investigations like that is bad practice and brings into serious doubt the integrity of the government's authority, especially if the perp is innocent of the secret one.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#34

Post by cnfjdnncd »

delinka wrote: post #22
sneak wrote: post #14

Tell me again why well-off American programmers continue living in that country without the most basic of human rights? It's time to go. You can still access us-east-1 from the civilized bits of Europe, you know. It has now been between 2 and 10 years since the time where it became totally unreasonable to continue living there while other options are available to you. Don't wait until the trumped-up federal charges.…

To where? What government on the planet doesn't have this kind of power over its country's citizens? Of the governments you can list, how many of those countries actually have civilization where a non-native wouldn't have to fear for their lives?

Iceland has a very good record with human rights and properly functioning democratic representation.

Some of the Nordic states are trailing runners up.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#35

Post by x3n0ph3n3 »

tremon wrote: post #26
x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't see any other "free" countries. Most lack a fundamental freedom of speech or a right to bear arms. Where is this utopia of freedom you think exists? As someone who's ancestors helped fight for and found this nation, it's hard for me to just give up on it.

So, you'd rather have weapons yourself than an accountable government? That explains a lot, I feel.

I'd like both, actually, but I guess your strawman allows you do just dismiss other perspectives.

I want a government accountable to the people, and the right to bear arms was meant to ensure that. The removal of arms turns a citizenry into subjects.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#36

Post by enlightenedfool »

ekianjo wrote: post #12
nxzero wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might seem repeative or unwarrented, but to me, it's very clear that the... US is a police state.

More like, it has become like that. Because of complete disregard/disrespect for the US constitution. The constitution had numerous safeguards to restrict abuse of power, but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it.

It will get worse when electorate instead of choosing the right candidates, chooses the more electable ones. The constitution cannot provide safeguard against ill-informed electorate. Not just the US, applies to any democracy. Most democracies have similar awesome constitution texts.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#37

Post by ekianjo »

Govannon wrote: post #24
ekianjo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like, it has become like that. Because of complete disregard/disrespect for the US constitution. The constitution had numerous safeguards to restrict abuse of power, but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it.

>but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it. Arguably in a democracy we Americans should all be blaming ourselves for that. Because of the whole voting/paying attention/holding elected officials accountable thing. The Federal Government is representative of our collective ability to do that well, plus our historic ability to do that well I suppose.

> Arguably in a democracy we Americans should all be blaming ourselves for that

Maybe as a nation if you consider that the term makes any sense, but for the most part this has started to happen before most Americans alive today were born. Like always there is not a single date in History where you can pinpoint a decisive moment where the Constitution was destroyed, it's been a progressive and "death by thousands cuts" kind of thing.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#38

Post by jnbiche »

Govannon wrote: post #24
ekianjo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like, it has become like that. Because of complete disregard/disrespect for the US constitution. The constitution had numerous safeguards to restrict abuse of power, but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it.

>but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it. Arguably in a democracy we Americans should all be blaming ourselves for that. Because of the whole voting/paying attention/holding elected officials accountable thing. The Federal Government is representative of our collective ability to do that well, plus our historic ability to do that well I suppose.

> Arguably in a democracy we Americans should all be blaming ourselves for that.

I'll accept the blame for spending so many years falling for the two-party system. For that I'll take my blame.

But for voting for candidates who turned out to be nothing like they presented themselves? Who outright and repeatedly lied during election season? (and here I'm talking about more than just the presidential level) I'm a reasonably intelligent, well-informed, and fairly skeptical citizen. If, in my idealism, I have fallen for political tricksters, then how can I blame my fellow citizens for doing the same?

In fact, with respect to the "well-informed" part, it was only when I completely stopped consuming mainstream media news that I was finally able to see through all the bullshit with some clarity.

I think most of the blame should fall squarely on the shoulders of our leaders. After all, we don't typically blame the secretary for a corporation's failure, right? In principle, that blame goes to the CEO, and s/he gets booted out.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#39

Post by function_seven »

ekianjo wrote: post #19
sneak wrote: post #14

Tell me again why well-off American programmers continue living in that country without the most basic of human rights? It's time to go. You can still access us-east-1 from the civilized bits of Europe, you know. It has now been between 2 and 10 years since the time where it became totally unreasonable to continue living there while other options are available to you. Don't wait until the trumped-up federal charges.…

> Tell me again why well-off American programmers continue living in that country without the most basic of human rights? One thing to keep in mind if you move out of the US is that you will be subject to double-taxation as a US citizen. So technically if you want to reject the system you need to leave the country and lose the passport.

You're not double-taxed as a US citizen abroad. You pay the higher of the two taxes. And you don't pay US taxes on the first 100k of income.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#40

Post by tptacek »

fiatmoney wrote: post #32
tptacek wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Am I misreading this case? It seems like evidence was furnished, and that the complaint here is that the original sealed warrant wasn't. The defense objects because the original FISA warrant could have been flawed, and if it was, the evidence deployed in the trial could have been excluded.

"Evidence" isn't just "the parts of the evidence the prosecution wanted to use". How is the defense supposed to cross-examine the person who gathered the evidence when they can't investigate the circumstances under which it was gathered? How are they supposed to make a cogent argument that it was not a properly issued warrant unless they can see it? How are they supposed to argue that even if the the warrant was prop…

I understand the argument, but is that what actually happened here? My understanding is that the one thing the defense doesn't have is the whole justification for entering the defendant's personal space in the first place.

I could be misreading!

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