A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage • Hacker News Board

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#321

Post by moftz » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #265

clarkmoody wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Critical omission on your part: not everyone needs to live on this wage. Think about high school kids trying to get a summer job. They don't need to survive on this wage, they simply need something productive to do over the summer. Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?

How about homeless high school kids? Or high school kids with one parent who are helping to supplement their household income?

There are other programs out there to support the homeless and single parents needing financial aid for their kids.

A high school kid making money regardless of his family's wealth is making money as a supplement to what the parents or guardians should already be receiving from the government or otherwise, assuming they aren't emancipated but that is a very special case. If the parents can't afford to meet the basic needs of their child despite how ever much welfare they receive then why should the state allow for a child to remain in that home?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#322

Post by pwthornton » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

clarkmoody wrote: post #175

QuotedForTruth wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter argument is that human labor has an actual cost. That is the cost to keep a human alive and in some level of comfort. Government benefits of many different types have "artificially" lowered this cost. Where employees refuse to pay enough for a human to live on, the government picks up the slack. Raising the minimum wage may be "artificial," but its not the first control placed on some otherwise natural la…

Critical omission on your part: not everyone needs to live on this wage. Think about high school kids trying to get a summer job. They don't need to survive on this wage, they simply need something productive to do over the summer. Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?

Employment of high school kids has been plummeting. This line of thinking you are exposing here has not kept up with the times and is more of a red herring.

The teens most likely to work are not in school, and thus they actually need a living wage.

Youth enrolled in high school had an employment rate of 18 percent. This is down from 36 percent in 1995: http://www.childtrends.org/?indicators=youth-employment#stha...

And, again, the youth working while in school are more likely to come from lower socio-economic strata. They may in fact need that money.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#323

Post by InclinedPlane » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #266

> Besides, Sweden has one of the rich world's biggest gaps between native and immigrant employment rates. Youth joblessness is 70 percent higher among the foreign-born than among Swedes. Lowering the minimum wage could draw more of the new, mainly Middle Eastern population, into the workforce and reduce social and ethnic tension. A minimum wage is simply not moral. It prevents me and you from entering into an employm…

This is horrifically naive. The minimum wage exists because there is an inherent power imbalance between employers and employees in today's economy. This distorts the labor market and puts workers and corporations on an unequal footing when it comes to negotiating pay, to the extreme disadvantage of the worker. The minimum wage is an attempt to force a correction to that inequality and unfairness. It is far from perfect, but until other, better systems exist it's one of the best tools available at present.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#324

Post by breischl » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:14 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #105

jandrese wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically with UBI there is no need for a social safety net beyond catastrophe insurance (Medicare). In practice I'm not so sure. Many social safety net programs have restrictions because it's too easy for an alcoholic to pick up his entire family's check and spend it on booze. Also, UBI is political poison for the people who wring their hands in worry that someone is mooching off of their had work. And make no m…

So the alcoholic takes their entire check and blows it on booze? Don't care. I specifically have to not care, so as to not erect a gigantic, wasteful government program designed to protect someone from their own short-sightedness (in my high-and-mighty opinion). In order for UBI to work, we have to give up substantially all notions of controlling what other people spend THEIR money on. That's the most appealing aspec…

Yes, but what about when the alcoholic's wife and adorable child show up on the news because they're starving and don't have heat? Or when someone's grandma gets scammed and ends up living on the street?

Most people are not willing to tell them "tough luck." So you're back to having all social programs that try to prevent people from doing stupid, short-sighted things.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#325

Post by firethief » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:15 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #216

Nogwater wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal I don't agree, and I'm not sure why people would see employment for its own sake would be a good thing. I want to increase some of the things that employments brings (purchasing power, a sense of purpose, etc...) and not others (loss of time, feeling trapped, etc...).

In the minimum wage context, the advantages are pretty clear. Mostly bringing people outside of productive society inside it. Homeless, unemployed, addicts etc. This is not about making middle class college graduate parents work more.

As GP was saying, employment doesn't help with homelessness or addiction; income and sense of purpose do. Employment does help with unemployment, but that's kind of begging the question.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#326

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

QuotedForTruth wrote: post #136

kough wrote: post #29

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…

The counter argument is that human labor has an actual cost. That is the cost to keep a human alive and in some level of comfort. Government benefits of many different types have "artificially" lowered this cost. Where employees refuse to pay enough for a human to live on, the government picks up the slack. Raising the minimum wage may be "artificial," but its not the first control placed on some otherwise natural la…

Read Smith. "A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him."

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_...

An enterprise which cannot pay the full cost of its inputs isn't an economically viable activity. It's a charity benefiting its owner.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#327

Post by jes5199 » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:17 PM UTC

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #266

> Besides, Sweden has one of the rich world's biggest gaps between native and immigrant employment rates. Youth joblessness is 70 percent higher among the foreign-born than among Swedes. Lowering the minimum wage could draw more of the new, mainly Middle Eastern population, into the workforce and reduce social and ethnic tension. A minimum wage is simply not moral. It prevents me and you from entering into an employm…

Paying someone an hourly wage that is below the socially accepted minimum amount is simply not moral. It binds employees to a cycle of poverty where they have neither enough money nor the free time to work for themselves productively. To break this social contract is cruel, whether or not it is legal.

The right-wing philosophy that money-exchanging relationships should not be regulated is ironically destroying the economy, creating an underclass who must produce but cannot consume. New immigrants - who are often educated and productive in their home countries - are forced to enter the underclass rather than using their skills in the capacity most useful to society.

Strengthen the minimum wage. Give everyone a fair chance.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#328

Post by jrs235 » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:20 PM UTC

JonFish85 wrote: post #174

refurb wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top marginal tax rate would have to be dramatically increased to pay for it Someone should do the math! Sure you could increase the top marginal rate, but where does that get you. Yes, the top 1% is very wealthy, but there aren't many of them. I would bet you'd have to increase income taxes well down the income ladder, dipping down into what most people call the middle class. You simply can't avoid it, that's whe…

As with any tax increase, the middle class is always the ones that bear the brunt of it, because for all the noise about taxing the 1%, there just isn't enough money to take. The people that end up really paying the price are the people who worked their entire lives to be able to pay for their kids' college, not the people who have $10b in assets. Politicians are happy to talk about raising the taxes of the wealthy a…

"As with any tax increase, the middle class is always the ones that bear the brunt of it" because we continually keep talking about taxing income instead of wealth.

Tax wealth more and income less. WHAT?!?!?!! People say? Well that really fancy and expensive military we are paying for.. it's not just protecting your income. It's protecting your wealth. Pay your fair proportional share for security of your assets...

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#329

Post by mc32 » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:21 PM UTC

kough wrote: post #319

mc32 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available Tying this in to our own economy, this is what Bernie and the Unions miss (or perhaps they don't). A min wage increase of 50% will entice low skills Americans who were on Snap to enter the workforce, driving out foreign low skills workers. And I agree with the increase. Too many of our workers possess too few marketable sk…

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. If your "low skills Americans" were more attractive to employers than low skills workers, they would replace those workers regardless of the wage. Increasing the minimum wage will incentivize employers to hire more effectively (because the cost of a worker goes up), which means that only those workers who are productive enough to be worth being paid the new, higher, minimum wage…

At 10/hr many people on Snap will not enter workforce because their benefits get reduced. At 15/hr the increase in wage more than offsets decrease in Snap and will attract more workers into the workforce pool.

Two low skilled Americans have an advantage in English language skills and for a significant portion of foreign workers, work eligibility.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#330

Post by petra » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:23 PM UTC

ksenzee wrote: post #297

petra wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Down Syndrome [0] .. are they worth hiring at $2.00/hour? Yes, and they and their families are willing for them to work at that wage, because there are huge benefits to being productively employed. Realistically, for people with disabilities that aren't being able to be in the regular labor market, there are some societal useful things to do, like volunteering(say in a soup kitchen), helping their community,etc. T…

I don't know exactly how you're picturing the US, but it's not as dystopian as you seem to think. We do in fact have soup kitchens and volunteer opportunities and people with Down's Syndrome who contribute meaningfully to their communities. (What we don't have a lot of anymore are factories. Go figure.)

Didn't mean to offend anybody, but just by hearing about a lot of mentally ill people being homeless in the US, i got a bad impression. But i may be wrong.

And it's not necessary a factory. It's not hard to create awful work environments.