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A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#261

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

home_boi wrote: post #236
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most restaurants derive most of their cost from labor. With basic income in and minimum wage out, you can pay people much less than you had to before. Yes, you may pay more in taxes, but that's from profit after everything else has been taken care of. So if you end up with less total profit than before, it sucks, but your control over the situation is far more variable than if you had to simply suck it up and plan to…

It's the opposite. The utility of money decreases as the amount of money owned/earned goes up. $9/hr to a person without basic income is worth more than $9/hr to a person with basic income. Now people need more money to gain the same utility as they could have previously gained without basic income. Why would people wash dishes if they didn't need to pay the bills?

Sure, a dishwasher might not need to work to pay for rent and heat, but...

Can they afford nice clothing to attract people they like?

Can they save up for college? For their kids?

Can they play the latest games? See the latest movies?

Do they enjoy cigarettes, alcohol, or other recreational drugs?

Do they like to eat out?

Do they want a higher standard of living when they "retire?"

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#262

Post by a3n »

tikhonj wrote: post #154
a3n wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.

Really? I read complaints about the mortgage interest deduction all the time. I mean, subsidizing home ownership isn't exactly an obviously worthy goal in and of itself and it creates weird incentives. The difference in popular discourse is threefold: the mortgage interest deduction is less of a blue/red team tribal marker; it isn't as morally charged an issue (the arguments against it are more economic in nature tha…

My statement was exaggerated. Of course people object to it. I do. But relatively speaking, if you got rid of it there'd be all but revolution.

I actually prefer zero deductions for anything, for all people and entities. Here's the rate: pay it. If you're below the line we draw, you don't have to pay.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#263

Post by clarkmoody »

dv_dt wrote: post #243
clarkmoody wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Critical omission on your part: not everyone needs to live on this wage. Think about high school kids trying to get a summer job. They don't need to survive on this wage, they simply need something productive to do over the summer. Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?

Teenagers don't need to live on this wage, but their parents need to have sufficient margin in their wages to support that.

Yes, but the alternative is that the teen sits around all summer causing trouble instead of having a job because the minimum wage is too high.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#264

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #258
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most restaurants derive most of their cost from labor. With basic income in and minimum wage out, you can pay people much less than you had to before. Yes, you may pay more in taxes, but that's from profit after everything else has been taken care of. So if you end up with less total profit than before, it sucks, but your control over the situation is far more variable than if you had to simply suck it up and plan to…

> Most restaurants derive most of their cost from labor. With basic income in and minimum wage out, you can pay people much less than you had to before. That's plainly false. No one's going to wash dishes at Chain Restaurant #12 for 15 cents an hour, not even if the government is giving them $10,000/year. Infinite increase in their current effort for a 1% increase in annual income? That's like the most pathologically…

Point missed, read my reply to the other comment.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#265

Post by falcolas »

clarkmoody wrote: post #175
QuotedForTruth wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter argument is that human labor has an actual cost. That is the cost to keep a human alive and in some level of comfort. Government benefits of many different types have "artificially" lowered this cost. Where employees refuse to pay enough for a human to live on, the government picks up the slack. Raising the minimum wage may be "artificial," but its not the first control placed on some otherwise natural la…

Critical omission on your part: not everyone needs to live on this wage. Think about high school kids trying to get a summer job. They don't need to survive on this wage, they simply need something productive to do over the summer. Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?

How about homeless high school kids? Or high school kids with one parent who are helping to supplement their household income?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#266

Post by zxcvvcxz »

> Besides, Sweden has one of the rich world's biggest gaps between native and immigrant employment rates. Youth joblessness is 70 percent higher among the foreign-born than among Swedes. Lowering the minimum wage could draw more of the new, mainly Middle Eastern population, into the workforce and reduce social and ethnic tension.

A minimum wage is simply not moral. It prevents me and you from entering into an employment agreement with which we may both benefit. Instead, the government is telling me how I have to interact with you.

The left-wing philosophy of a minimum livable wage is ironically hurting the new immigrants to these countries. The reality is that first-world nations have higher employment standards because citizens are more educated and capable. Instead of giving new immigrants, who are almost certainly less educated and capable (remember, they're trying to move to countries with better opportunities) the ability to work and gain experience, we leave them with little options.

And like the quote says, it's just bad for assimilation into the host society. Being able to work is fantastic for that. You have to learn at least a bit of the language. Interact with the people. Learn to follow the laws and customs of the new country. Without work opportunities, immigrants can often wind up stuck in their segregated ghettos. And high unemployment invariably leads to a lower quality of life.

Abolish the minimum wage. Give new immigrants the opportunities they want.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#267

Post by ThrustVectoring »

randyrand wrote: post #232
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? Employment is a net-negative, the denominator of economic productivity. If we have the same amount of material wealth, it's better to not work as hard to get it. "Increase employment" is targeting the wrong measure.

> "Increase employment" is targeting the wrong measure. What is the correct measure? Sounds like you are arguing for wealth per capita or total wealth. Even still, wealth per captia is (productivity) * (employment) / (population). Ignoring time. So even if I agreed with you, more employment is still a good thing even under your 'correct' measure.

The correct measure is something like quality-adjusted life years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-adjusted_life_year), treating the particular details of the job as a disability.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#268

Post by occamrazor »

jack9 wrote: post #92
merpnderp wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? It keeps people who want to work from working. People who would be willing to work at less than the minimum wage. Subsiding on government relief can lead to depression, loss of social status, load term mental illness. Not having a job is a very unhealthy thing for most people.

> It keeps people who want to work from working. That doesn't mean the work (the individual is capable of) is valuable enough to justify the position, in the locality.

But what are the alternatives, for the people whose productivity is lower than minimum wage?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#269

Post by pasquinelli »

esaym wrote: post #203

I'm never quite sure what to think about articles (or ideas) like this. I think of my grandfather who served in the air force for 20 years. When he needed more money, what did he do? He picked up a paper route early in the morning. What did he do when the paper route + air force income still wasn't enough? He started driving a taxi during evening hours. And when those three jobs weren't enough? He opened up a service…

people complain about money. people complain about a lot of things. people complain. this isn't something being amiss in the world today. it's pretty typical. shit, maybe your grampa even complained about money a time or two himself. just not to his grandkids, obviously.

if there's a big difference in how people now view work compared to people in your grampa's time -- go back further and they might even have viewed wage labor with some contempt -- it's foolish to assume that the reason for it is that people today are different, rather than the circumstances they're in, which determine what constitutes a rational choice, have changed.

maybe your friend who works 40 hours a week has good reason to not look for a second job for his three free days a week. maybe his assessment of his circumstances is actually better than your assessment of his circumstances, even if he complains about money now and again.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#270

Post by ThomPete »

Karunamon wrote: post #249
ThomPete wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that different than today? The very point is that less people will be in this situation because getting your basic needs met is shown to make your more responsible. Se further up in thread for some of the studies.

If you have no cash, and you've used up the meager funds TANF gives you, there are other programs still available to cover the necessities of life.. SNAP comes to mind, as do overnight shelters. It's not much of a life, but at least you're not out in the cold. A safety net for the safety net if you will. Okay, now that stuff goes away, and you just get the one (significantly increased, but still, just the one) payout…

But this is assuming that Basic Income is a solution for the poor. It's not. It's a solution for all of us as it's based on the premise there there will be less work in the future not more.

So We are all going to be poorer so to speak UBI tries to make sure we somehow deal with that.

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