A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage • Hacker News Board

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#21

Post by manarth » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #4

But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…

> what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs

> a UBI, on top of existing welfare programs

Most proposals see UBI as replacing the existing welfare programs. No more means-testing, etc (and a cost-saving in reduced administration). How practical that is has yet to be seen.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#22

Post by andreasklinger » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #7

ThomPete wrote: post #3

It's not just smarter it's the only possible solution out of the two. Many people wrongly discuss the premise of basic income in the context of whether it's a better solution for for the job market. I.e. as a better way to solve unemployment fluctuations which in this view are still going up. But the whole point about Basic Income is what we do about there being fewer and fewer jobs that pay a proper salary.

Proponents of the UBI make the generous assumption that recipients will be as careful with money as they (the proponents) are . Choosing between food & housing credits vs. cash, the former has less room for abuse. Its like "I would never use my UBI on alcohol"...well you're not "most people"

imo the benefit of UBI is that you remove that whole disfunctional layer of figuring out who should and should not receive support.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#23

Post by Jtsummers » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #14

harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Presumably though you just increase income tax to recover some or all of that from people who are employed? So the actual cost should be significantly lower.

That tax revenue isn't just from (personal or corporate) income tax. There are a number of other sources of federal tax revenue which could be increased without a (direct) impact on the same people intended to benefit from a UBI (though it will have an indirect impact).

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#24

Post by forrestthewoods » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

On the topic of immigrants and minimum wage/basic income. Brussels provided free housing, food, health care, and education to immigrants. And yet their immigrant community was still unable and/or unwilling to integrate.

Basic income and/or higher minimum wage doesn't solve all problems. It even causes some new ones. Which isn't to say it isn't a good idea. But we probably don't discuss the problems as much as we should. I don't think it's the silver bullet many people wish it to be.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#25

Post by tyingq » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Interesting. This chart is a pretty good reference to see what types of existing spending might overlap with that (Social Security?) and what wouldn't. https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/total_spending_...

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#26

Post by tankenmate » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:25 PM UTC

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #14

harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Presumably though you just increase income tax to recover some or all of that from people who are employed? So the actual cost should be significantly lower.

Some argue that if an UBI is introduced then a flat rate tax should be applied to all other income; in the US this would lead to reasonably large income tax increase.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#27

Post by walterstucco » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:25 PM UTC

pdabbadabba wrote: post #10

paulpauper wrote: post #4

But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…

I would have thought that a UBI would replace most or all existing entitlement programs. But perhaps people have different ideas? And you're right, of course, that the poor in the U.S. generally are not literally starving. Though their poor health and high obesity rates are themselves symptoms of their limited access to healthy food, and difficulty maintaining a healthy lifestyle that may be due to other poverty-indu…

they are just a symptom of a very bad healthcare system. in many European countries the universal HCS takes care of everyone. My country, Italy, is quite bad in everything, except for good and the quality of the free healthcare (free as in paid by taxes)

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#28

Post by Mikeb85 » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:25 PM UTC

jff wrote: post #12

Mikeb85 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, in the US the alternative to government power is corporate power.

> Unfortunately, in the US the alternative to government power is corporate power. What's the alternative elsewhere? Warlord power?

Well, there are plenty of countries ruled by competing warlords...

Ideally in a functioning democracy you can replace the government for one which represents the people, but in the US the 'establishment' controls them anyway.

Simply put, better to demand a guaranteed income from the government, then to put it off for fear of them abusing power, only to cede control to entities who are worse...

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#29

Post by kough » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:26 PM UTC

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available

The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the minimum wage increases, robots and other non-human investments start to look much, much more attractive. Many businesses would be happy to hire workers for less than minimum wage, but legally cannot, and so do not hire.

Of course, it's a complicated issue. Look at the employment of those with disabilities like Down Syndrome [0], for example. Are these employees worth hiring at $7.50/hour? No, for the most part, they're not. Are some? Sure, but on average there's no way. But are they worth hiring at $2.00/hour? Yes, and they and their families are willing for them to work at that wage, because there are huge benefits to being productively employed.

Recently these programs are coming "under attack" in various states. New Hampshire just made this practice illegal, for example [1]. We'll see how it plays out -- my bet is that a) few news outlets will follow up in a few years and see how many of these disabled workers are able to find new employment, and b) few disabled workers will be able to do so.

[0] http://www.witf.org/news/2014/07/thousands-of-disabled-worke...

[1] http://www.care2.com/causes/new-hampshire-bans-subminimum-wa...

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#30

Post by virmundi » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:26 PM UTC

harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

The advocates for such policy do keep this in mind. They require tax increases on business. If you make money, you have to pay. The idea is to help reallocate wealth because the market has moved beyond certain segments of labor.

For example, when McDonald's can automate half its staff, the other half can't provide labor at the minimum price to be worth while. UBI says give these people, those displaced from the labor force since they are no longer needed, tax money directly rather than going through government mediators in a piecemeal fashion like they do today. Of course McDonald's will have a higher tax burden to support these displaced workers.

Rather than McDonald's shouldering the burden by itself, the government acts as an insurance company. It takes in taxes and payout what is essentially an existence claim.