A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage • Hacker News Board

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#91

Post by spankalee » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:41 PM UTC

alttab wrote: post #73

a3n wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.

The mortgage interest deduction "hurts" only government tax revenues. Raising the tide on minimum wage impacts every business that has employees, regardless of what their cost structure is. What if your business worked in such a way that a single employee wouldn't even produce $15 of revenue in an hour? You can't lose money on every sale and make up for it in volume. The artificial increase is a problem because it go…

The mortgage interest deduction disadvantages renters compared to owners. Subsidizing home ownership effectively taxes renting.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#92

Post by jack9 » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:41 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #82

a3n wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.

And? It keeps people who want to work from working. People who would be willing to work at less than the minimum wage. Subsiding on government relief can lead to depression, loss of social status, load term mental illness. Not having a job is a very unhealthy thing for most people.

> It keeps people who want to work from working.

That doesn't mean the work (the individual is capable of) is valuable enough to justify the position, in the locality.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#93

Post by ThrustVectoring » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:41 PM UTC

kough wrote: post #29

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…

Wait, what? Employment is a net-negative, the denominator of economic productivity. If we have the same amount of material wealth, it's better to not work as hard to get it.

"Increase employment" is targeting the wrong measure.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#94

Post by spinlock » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:41 PM UTC

johndevor wrote: post #45

virmundi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The advocates for such policy do keep this in mind. They require tax increases on business. If you make money, you have to pay. The idea is to help reallocate wealth because the market has moved beyond certain segments of labor. For example, when McDonald's can automate half its staff, the other half can't provide labor at the minimum price to be worth while. UBI says give these people, those displaced from the labor…

Won't higher taxes here in the US drive more and more business overseas (specifically to China) and further exacerbate the problem of income inequality? We already see corporations keeping massive amounts of capital overseas because of high tax rates. That money should and could be here in the USA.

businesses would look at total operating costs. Taxes are increased but payroll is decreased. It's a win if you can structure it such that the savings in payroll are greater than the increase in tax.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#95

Post by yanilkr » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:41 PM UTC

A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty.

If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time.

This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which is harder and my earnings are taken away? so lets put a control on how many hours someone else works. The productive people are dragged down and discouraged.

Automation is replacing the labor that humans don't have to do. This frees up human capital so we can focus our endeavors somewhere else. America already provides free education up to high school and with this education why should people of next generation aim for minimum wage jobs?

In a modern capitalistic economy it is very difficult to make money without adding value to society and this equilibrium is reached naturally due to free markets despite of politics meddling with it.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#96

Post by aetherson » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:42 PM UTC

pdabbadabba wrote: post #10

paulpauper wrote: post #4

But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…

I would have thought that a UBI would replace most or all existing entitlement programs. But perhaps people have different ideas? And you're right, of course, that the poor in the U.S. generally are not literally starving. Though their poor health and high obesity rates are themselves symptoms of their limited access to healthy food, and difficulty maintaining a healthy lifestyle that may be due to other poverty-indu…

I think it would be politically difficult to replace most or all existing entitlement programs with a basic income.

When you get a bunch of disabled people up on stage and they say, "Wait a minute, we are genuinely unable to work most jobs, and we have special needs to just get through the day, and you propose to just give us the same amount of money you do to some 22 year old healthy slacker from a good family who wants to take a few years to play X-Box?" and you're already trying a very very contentious policy proposal, is that the hill you want to die on? If not, we still have disability.

What about the just genuinely irresponsible mother who blows her income on, whatever, in-app purchases, and then she and her children are homeless and starving. Do you say, "Well, tough break, you could've been more responsible" or do you have programs to keep them fed and off the streets? Food stamps and Section 8 are back.

Healthcare pretty much has to continue to be separately subsidized unless you want anyone who has enough bad luck to have an expensive health condition that exceeds the value of basic income to die.

At that point, is there a really significant entitlement program still off the table?

(Edit: Sorry, yes, of course there is one significant entitlement program not touched on above: Social Security. I think you might somewhat reasonably make a basic income essentially "Social Security for everyone," and avoid having a special carve-out for seniors by saying, "We're not taking away your social security, we're just giving social security to more and more people.")

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#97

Post by merpnderp » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:42 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #8

DickingAround wrote: post #6

It makes sense if-and-only-if that basic income isn't being doled out by the same organization which also runs the military-industrial or prison-industrial worlds. As an American, I think it's safe to say our federal government can't be trusted to not turn into a tyranny if it's everyone's primary employer. We would get even more massive corruption almost instantly. For example, some people would lobby to get those t…

Unfortunately, in the US the alternative to government power is corporate power.

Without government power, corporations don't have any power. They only exert their power through the government. What, is Apple coming to my house to tell me what to do, how I can work, or to collect a tax? Just like Disney keeps you from file sharing by using the government, so does the your local health insurance company keep out the competition by excessive government regulations they helped write.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#98

Post by alttab » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:42 PM UTC

p4wnc6 wrote: post #78

a3n wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.

It is a problem if all of the would-be employers look at you and say, "Well, for what you bring to the table, I would be willing to pay $3/hour, but no more. If I have to pay more than that, I will simply make do with life having fewer employees." You would prefer $7/hr instead of $3/hr, but you would prefer $3/hr instead of $0/hr.

$0 an hour is life's true minimum wage.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#99

Post by rconti » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:43 PM UTC

alttab wrote: post #73

a3n wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.

The mortgage interest deduction "hurts" only government tax revenues. Raising the tide on minimum wage impacts every business that has employees, regardless of what their cost structure is. What if your business worked in such a way that a single employee wouldn't even produce $15 of revenue in an hour? You can't lose money on every sale and make up for it in volume. The artificial increase is a problem because it go…

Who does it help? Anybody? When you tell every home shopper "you can afford x% more house thanks to this deduction", what do you think that does to prices?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#100

Post by alttab » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 7:44 PM UTC

spankalee wrote: post #91

alttab wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mortgage interest deduction "hurts" only government tax revenues. Raising the tide on minimum wage impacts every business that has employees, regardless of what their cost structure is. What if your business worked in such a way that a single employee wouldn't even produce $15 of revenue in an hour? You can't lose money on every sale and make up for it in volume. The artificial increase is a problem because it go…

The mortgage interest deduction disadvantages renters compared to owners. Subsidizing home ownership effectively taxes renting.

Disagree. I've owned 3 homes and my mortgage interest deduction made no difference on whether or not I purchased.

The difference between renting and owning is income, savings rate, and lifestyle. If you can't afford to buy, you either don't make enough or don't save enough. It's the down payment that separates a lot of renters and buyers. If you are arguing homes are expensive, I'd argue that $15 minimum wage isn't helping.

Mortgage interest deductions may be bad policy, but it doesn't "tax renting." That's asinine.