81–90 of 498 posts
First it's both a simple welfare and tax system in one package. Basic income as typically understood is only half of the story.
It's also easier to reason about, the money flows are way more obvious, it's immediately clear whether you are a net contributor or receiver and it's easier to set the (few) parameters.
> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…
> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
The top marginal tax rate would have to be dramatically increased to pay for it. Also, you'd have to increase capital gains and estate taxes. Make no mistake, basic minimum income would be a massive redistribution of wealth. I'm in favor of it, but let's not pretend we can pay for it by shuffling around some social safety net spending.
It would completely remove the necessity to be productive. That can't turn out well. What's preventing me from having as many babies as I can knowing that they too will not have to work or find a job to be supported? I know this won't work at scale, because I understand math.
But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…
That isn't because they're eating well, it's because of the opposite. Malnutrition, poor sources of food(fast food) and lack of time to adequately exercise(beyond standing) cause this, not an understated availability of food to the poor in the US.
> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…
> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.
Same with the availability of cheap loans and grants for colleges - it only really serves to increase the price of an education.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would have thought that a UBI would replace most or all existing entitlement programs. But perhaps people have different ideas? And you're right, of course, that the poor in the U.S. generally are not literally starving. Though their poor health and high obesity rates are themselves symptoms of their limited access to healthy food, and difficulty maintaining a healthy lifestyle that may be due to other poverty-indu…
Yes, from the very limited research I've done, the key question in the UBI discussion is this: what the heck is it? It's a great slogan, but you have to add at least a dozen or two bullet points or it can mean so many things that it effectively means nothing.
But it sounds like you've looked at this harder than I have. What are the questions I'm overlooking?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
It would completely remove the necessity to be productive. That can't turn out well. What's preventing me from having as many babies as I can knowing that they too will not have to work or find a job to be supported? I know this won't work at scale, because I understand math.
Why would you want to have as many babies as you can?
But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…
> what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs > a UBI, on top of existing welfare programs Most proposals see UBI as replacing the existing welfare programs. No more means-testing, etc (and a cost-saving in reduced administration). How practical that is has yet to be seen.
So, yeah if you spend your year's stipend on a week in a Hilton suite, then can't afford to eat, you might get additional help, and lose complete control over your BI.
I knew a homeless guy in Anchorage that did this with his PFD and disability money. He needed more help than a check every month.
> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…
> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.
Conditional welfare perpetuates it also because people are afraid to take a job and then lose it.
But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…
Also, I'd never propose universal basic income as a complete solution. UBI doesn't make our complicated world suddenly simple without any effort. It requires a certain level of economic especially agricultural productivity for us to even consider ubi as viable for a large economy like ours.
Firstly, ubi like single payer universal healthcare will not be free of cost. I expect full cooperation from my work force in this matter. Taxes will have to go up, at least in the short to medium term and incentives and deductions must come down. The economy will likely suffer a slowdown in the short and medium term as well. We can't turn back and run away. We need a clear commitment and mandate to stay the course even if it send incredibly stupid do so.
Secondly, in my mind universal basic income requires a certain level of community support. As the saying goes "man can't live on bread alone". People need a reason to live. Perhaps indoctrination is to string of a word but we'd need a support structure to motivate people. While I strongly believe people are inherently good and not evil, it will be a difficult challenge to motivate people without the easy monetary benefit.
Thirdly, I think ubi requires a certain level of automation in what we shall term as essential goods and services. This means these guys and services should continue to flourish and flourish highly efficiently even if the workforce shows low participation. In other words, we will need a way to keep our utilities like water and electricity, our infrastructure like roads and Internet connectivity, our food supply and so on to pretty much work on autopilot.
What do you think?
Edit: in my mind, ubi replaces most if not all other entitlement and welfare programs. An important premise of ubi is we will save money on compliance such as trying to make sure wic money only goes to qualified people. If we extended wic to all children, we would not have to determine eligibility. This I think will help adoption and help remove stigma of welfare.