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A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#41

Post by Permit »

seibelj wrote: post #11
harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Don't have an opinion on any of this, but how many of the population you calculate are citizens over the age of 18? And what would be saved from the US budget by eliminating various existing programs that would be superfluous by UBI?

Do children not typically receive the universal basic income? If not, is it fair to give a parent of three children the same allowance as I (a single person) receive? I also wonder about whether or not $10,000 is more or less than someone on disability currently receives.

Is there a risk here that the more vulnerable members of society will end up receiving less money?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#42

Post by empath75 »

paulpauper wrote: post #4

But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…

I don't think it's actually a problem if people receiving basic income are 'wasting it' on 'frivolities'. If we don't start redistributing wealth, the economy is going to freeze up. There's only so much stuff that computer programmers in silicon valley can buy.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#43

Post by a3n »

kough wrote: post #29

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…

> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor,

And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act.

I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#44

Post by jandrese »

paulpauper wrote: post #4

But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…

Theoretically with UBI there is no need for a social safety net beyond catastrophe insurance (Medicare).

In practice I'm not so sure. Many social safety net programs have restrictions because it's too easy for an alcoholic to pick up his entire family's check and spend it on booze.

Also, UBI is political poison for the people who wring their hands in worry that someone is mooching off of their had work. And make no mistake, there is a sizeable segment of the population that will be perfectly happy to sit at home and do nothing all day, wasting their lives and the public's resources. They will show up in papers and angry up the old folks. What the paper's won't have is the story of the charitable work people can do without the need to constantly work to eat. It won't have the story of the artists who are breaking new ground and doing exciting things in their tiny studios. It will have the story of the 300lb lazy asshole who watches TV all day long.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#45

Post by johndevor »

virmundi wrote: post #30
harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

The advocates for such policy do keep this in mind. They require tax increases on business. If you make money, you have to pay. The idea is to help reallocate wealth because the market has moved beyond certain segments of labor. For example, when McDonald's can automate half its staff, the other half can't provide labor at the minimum price to be worth while. UBI says give these people, those displaced from the labor…

Won't higher taxes here in the US drive more and more business overseas (specifically to China) and further exacerbate the problem of income inequality?

We already see corporations keeping massive amounts of capital overseas because of high tax rates. That money should and could be here in the USA.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#46

Post by crdoconnor »

ThomPete wrote: post #3

It's not just smarter it's the only possible solution out of the two. Many people wrongly discuss the premise of basic income in the context of whether it's a better solution for for the job market. I.e. as a better way to solve unemployment fluctuations which in this view are still going up. But the whole point about Basic Income is what we do about there being fewer and fewer jobs that pay a proper salary.

>But the whole point about Basic Income is what we do about there being fewer and fewer jobs that pay a proper salary.

The fact that there are few jobs rebuilding America's crumbling infrastructure is due to a political choice, not some sort of inevitable outcome of a 'fair' and just market.

Likewise, the fact that China makes most of the cheap things we buy at Walmart was thanks to a series of political choices (trade policy).

There's absolutely no reason why we couldn't reverse those policies to bring the jobs back.

Moreover, our infrastructure is going to keep crumbling and China isn't going to sell us cheap manufactured goods forever.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#47

Post by btown »

pdabbadabba wrote: post #10
paulpauper wrote: post #4

But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…

I would have thought that a UBI would replace most or all existing entitlement programs. But perhaps people have different ideas? And you're right, of course, that the poor in the U.S. generally are not literally starving. Though their poor health and high obesity rates are themselves symptoms of their limited access to healthy food, and difficulty maintaining a healthy lifestyle that may be due to other poverty-indu…

This makes me wonder if food deserts would persist even in a UBI world. Within a traditionally poor community, with a lack of education about healthy eating as well as a lack of competition between grocery stores, could we see locations where all foodstuffs became more expensive, and people maintained their existing eating habits?

I'll need to do much deeper thinking on this.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#48

Post by zardo »

iskander wrote: post #16
harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Would children and retirees also claim basic income?

Children are included in the basic income in Alaska.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#49

Post by EpicEng »

NolF wrote: post #36
harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Note that there are "only" 209m Americans over the age of 18 [1]. Not that it makes it much more affordable. Without including medical, it looks the government spends about 1.5T already (including SS) [2] 1 http://www.infoplease.com/us/census/data/demographic.html 2 http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2016USbn_1...

Yet I imagine that a basic income for e.g. a family of four would be quite a bit higher than that for a single 20 year old. Minors have to be factored in somehow.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#50

Post by empath75 »

paulpauper wrote: post #7
ThomPete wrote: post #3

It's not just smarter it's the only possible solution out of the two. Many people wrongly discuss the premise of basic income in the context of whether it's a better solution for for the job market. I.e. as a better way to solve unemployment fluctuations which in this view are still going up. But the whole point about Basic Income is what we do about there being fewer and fewer jobs that pay a proper salary.

Proponents of the UBI make the generous assumption that recipients will be as careful with money as they (the proponents) are . Choosing between food & housing credits vs. cash, the former has less room for abuse. Its like "I would never use my UBI on alcohol"...well you're not "most people"

People are perfectly capable of trading food-stamp bought groceries for booze right now.
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