Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#121

Post by saulrh » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:20 AM UTC

lojack wrote: post #109

saulrh wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think we would live in a forced back door world for too long. After another 2, 4, or 8 years, we will eventually realize that giving the government a back door to the iPhone did not give it a back door to the myriad of other encrypted communications tools out there. Terrorists will find other ways to hide their communications. I'm going to disagree with you here. Didn't we think, back in 2001, that we'd onl…

How exactly are they supposed to permanently remove all semblance of privacy? Short of infiltrating popular open source projects in plain view and proving the (potentially) unprovable, I don't see how this is possible.

Like this: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/tp-lin...

If they can't quite do that, then they bring back the whole "export-grade cryptography" thing, except they call it "terrorist-grade cryptography" this time around. Then they start monitoring every crypto-capable open-source project's responsible disclosure system. When they see a vulnerability good enough to subvert that open-source project, they shut down that project before the bug can be fixed. And then they suppress all knowledge of the bug.

Or they infiltrate popular open-source projects in plain view. Wouldn't be hard at all to get that one bug they need in some peripherally relevant subsystem that nevertheless breaks the entire thing.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#122

Post by kabdib » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:22 AM UTC

smitherfield wrote: post #97

ridgeguy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure Apple could be fined if its relevant employees took individual decisions that resulted in Apple's inability to comply with the court's order. Apple doesn't have the ability to compel an individual's conduct. The court's order applies to Apple, not to named individuals. Given that, I don't see a legal basis for fines, executive criminal charges, etc. I think there's a lot of power in the hands of a few em…

They could certainly be fined, charged with obstruction of justice/contempt of court etc, if Apple gave monetary or other incentives to its employees to make said decisions, as the commenter I was responding to was suggesting.

What about good references? What about "Okay, we understand, but we'll gladly have you back (with a signing bonus) when this blows over?"

A court order doesn't extend to Apple being required to be a dick to its ex-employees.

(And yeah, if any of you folks want a job, there are a zillion people on HN happy to talk, I'm sure)

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#123

Post by kabdib » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:24 AM UTC

harryh wrote: post #50

cortesoft wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, lets say they complete the task... and it doesn't work. Then what?

Then they explain why it doesn't work to a judge and the judge decides if it doesn't work for a good reason or if it doesn't work because someone intentionally screwed it up. If it was for a good reason then welp. Sometimes shit doesn't work. Oh well. If they intentionally screwed it up then they could be found in contempt of court and fined and/or jailed. In either case the would be asked to try again if that was fe…

Two words: Underhanded C

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#124

Post by muddi900 » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:25 AM UTC

What sort of decryption task would even be needed if ? Suppose Apple can update the phone signed backdoored update, the DOJ order never asked for decryption, only a way to bruteforce the phone.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#125

Post by JustSomeNobody » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:31 AM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

There are no terrorists. It's a fiction imposed upon the American people by a government with a power trip.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#126

Post by na85 » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:32 AM UTC

Retra wrote: post #88

na85 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet you're fun at parties.

Is that something you think every person must aspire to be?

No, I just find the "hackernews pedant" shtick to be banal, tiresome, and very played-out.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#127

Post by ohyeshedid » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:36 AM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #94

enraged_camel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing any sort of "gigantic public debate." Sure, it looks that way from within our tech bubble, but let's be real: the overwhelming majority of people in the United States do not give a shit and could not care less. And among the remaining small minority, encryption is way down on the list of issues they care about and choose to spend time and mental energy on. Further complicating things is the fact that t…

When you look at how well protected Americans health records are, and how judges have said a search of your person doesn't extend to your phone, I think you are entirely wrong to suggest this doesn't extend beyond the tech industry.

You're correct as everything is dependent on the tech industry. That's part of why this is such an important fight for Apple, because it directly effects just about any industry that requires privacy these days.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#128

Post by rev_bird » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:37 AM UTC

ohyeshedid wrote: post #120

studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

That's a little over 91 million in fines over a year. Apple has over 200 billion in cash on hand. They can ride those fines for quite awhile. Also, there won't be any anti-encryption laws. The risk is backdoor encryption across the board, which could have very similar outcome but isn't what's at stake here.

>They can ride those fines for quite awhile.

They could, but they're still a publicly traded company. I wouldn't hold it against a board that wasn't OK with spending $250,000 a day on a principle, but I'd be mad as hell at the people collecting the fine.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#129

Post by rev_bird » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:39 AM UTC

nhangen wrote: post #104

studentrob wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

What if Apple moves their HQ out of the country...

Julian Assange set up shop outside of the US, now he lives in the basement of an office building.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#130

Post by ohyeshedid » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:40 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #91

studentrob wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

I'm not seeing any sort of "gigantic public debate." Sure, it looks that way from within our tech bubble, but let's be real: the overwhelming majority of people in the United States do not give a shit and could not care less. And among the remaining small minority, encryption is way down on the list of issues they care about and choose to spend time and mental energy on. Further complicating things is the fact that t…

Exactly.

People are already aware. It's being covered in all forms of media, across all demographics. Awareness and understanding are wildly different concepts. People are aware, they just don't understand. The public can't be properly educated in the matter, because it's so nebulous and complex that it requires dedication to understand it. That goes for most of the issues we face as a society.