Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#91

Post by enraged_camel » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 1:48 AM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #79

kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

I'm not seeing any sort of "gigantic public debate." Sure, it looks that way from within our tech bubble, but let's be real: the overwhelming majority of people in the United States do not give a shit and could not care less. And among the remaining small minority, encryption is way down on the list of issues they care about and choose to spend time and mental energy on.

Further complicating things is the fact that this is a complex topic and most people (including almost all lawmakers and law enforcement agencies) are too ignorant to understand the important nuances, and they have no interest in changing that because, frankly, encryption is hard.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#92

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 1:49 AM UTC

jfoutz wrote: post #19

moioci wrote: post #2

Interesting parallel with Lavabit pointed out at the end of the article. Would the DOJ be willing to risk shutting down the biggest and most profitable corporation on earth over this?

The DOJ couldn't shut down apple. Apple has $200,000,000,000 in cash and marketable securities. DOJ's budget is only 27 billion. That's a lot of lawyer time. It's a huge waste of money, but there it is. Way less likely, but Apple could move HQ to another country. And take their secret source code and keys with them.

Perhaps Apple, Inc. could become a subsidiary of Apple's Irish operations.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#93

Post by shawn-furyan » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 1:49 AM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

> engineers need not fall on their swords

I would quibble with this characterization. Security engineers may well improve their employment prospects and professional visibility by publicly demonstrating that they are unwilling to do work that is counter to the mission of securing systems. It seems likely to me that this sort of highly public gesture would be personally profitable, rather than a net sacrifice.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#94

Post by peteretep » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 1:50 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #91

studentrob wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

I'm not seeing any sort of "gigantic public debate." Sure, it looks that way from within our tech bubble, but let's be real: the overwhelming majority of people in the United States do not give a shit and could not care less. And among the remaining small minority, encryption is way down on the list of issues they care about and choose to spend time and mental energy on. Further complicating things is the fact that t…

When you look at how well protected Americans health records are, and how judges have said a search of your person doesn't extend to your phone, I think you are entirely wrong to suggest this doesn't extend beyond the tech industry.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#95

Post by studentrob » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 1:52 AM UTC

lugg wrote: post #83

studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

Yea, we can all blame someone else. I like this, "not my job to uphold the constitution", "its the courts fault for letting it get here", "its the politicians fault for going a long with this", "its the peoples fault for voting for them". The fact is, if nobody stands up for this, do you really think anyone is going to stand up and try to take away the back door to the iphone and get away with it? Do you really belie…

I hear you. The point is we can stand up for it here and now.

This case isn't over. There are a lot of good things about the US. I believe our commitment to freedom of speech is stronger than elsewhere. This case is strongly testing that belief. And, according to the ACLU, it will be at least two years before this court reaches the supreme court [1]. There is a lot of time to educate the public on the facts about the case and how the technology in their pockets works.

There are multiple examples of public figures changing their minds when presented with evidence. Lindsey Graham and Sam Harris are two.

I and a few other developers are forming a grassroots campaign around this. If you'd like to get involved, whether you're a developer or not, shoot me an email at stillastudent on google's email service

[1] http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-03-04/apple-and-the...

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#96

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 1:53 AM UTC

rawnlq wrote: post #36

jfoutz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DOJ couldn't shut down apple. Apple has $200,000,000,000 in cash and marketable securities. DOJ's budget is only 27 billion. That's a lot of lawyer time. It's a huge waste of money, but there it is. Way less likely, but Apple could move HQ to another country. And take their secret source code and keys with them.

I wonder if there's any advantage for Apple to form their own sovereign nation to operate out of. They are already richer than many existing countries. Can't they just buy out a Singapore-sized island somewhere?

Some have suggested Apple use its massive cash reserves to bail out Greece.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#97

Post by smitherfield » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 1:53 AM UTC

ridgeguy wrote: post #89

smitherfield wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you get a lawful court order, you comply with it. To do otherwise would result in massive fines and quite possibly executives being criminally charged. If the Apple security engineers want to quit on principle, then it truly would be on principle; there is absolutely no way Apple's legal department would allow them to ever be rehired or offered any compensation/gifts beyond a standard severance package. If engin…

I'm not sure Apple could be fined if its relevant employees took individual decisions that resulted in Apple's inability to comply with the court's order. Apple doesn't have the ability to compel an individual's conduct. The court's order applies to Apple, not to named individuals. Given that, I don't see a legal basis for fines, executive criminal charges, etc. I think there's a lot of power in the hands of a few em…

They could certainly be fined, charged with obstruction of justice/contempt of court etc, if Apple gave monetary or other incentives to its employees to make said decisions, as the commenter I was responding to was suggesting.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#98

Post by peteretep » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 1:53 AM UTC

pdkl95 wrote: post #48

caf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you can draft people to go over to Vietnam and be shot at by the NVA...

I just mentioned how this could be interpreted as a draft to my mother who grew up watching the Vietnam draft, and she immediately brought up an interesting question: "Can you be a conscientious objector?" Given that nobody is being put in a position where they might have to use deadly force, the usual pacifist or religious arguments don't apply. While suspect it would be hard to extend the concept to the orders give…

You need to prove your conscientious objections to a court. Unless you've got an existing history of privacy activism, that's going to be a challenge.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#99

Post by saulrh » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 1:53 AM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

> I don't think we would live in a forced back door world for too long. After another 2, 4, or 8 years, we will eventually realize that giving the government a back door to the iPhone did not give it a back door to the myriad of other encrypted communications tools out there. Terrorists will find other ways to hide their communications.

I'm going to disagree with you here. Didn't we think, back in 2001, that we'd only have to live with pat-downs on every plane flight for so long? That the government would eventually realize that terrorists couldn't hijack planes once passengers knew that the proper response was to storm the cockpit rather than waiting for the usual ransom demand to be acquiesced to? That the terrorists would find other ways to cause terror?

If the US Government gets what it wants with this case they will use it as a wedge to permanently deny us any semblance of electronic privacy. You will get to choose between using paper and having some random police officer [1] decide that it's time for you to go down and he's absolutely sure he can find something you've done wrong [2].

This move is one of the last things standing in the way of that future. Apple's engineers are threatening to destroy one of the most successful, profitable organized entities in human history in protest. A sort of technological mutually assured destruction. I hope their threat works, and that they don't have to follow through on it, and that if they do, their statement is understood.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2016/03/10/... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#100

Post by ridgeguy » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 1:55 AM UTC

dogecoinbase wrote: post #7

giancarlostoro wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the engineers got fired or quit their jobs what could be done then I wonder?

Impossible to know without the actual employment documents, but also curious if the DoJ could be considered a tortfeasor for disrupting an employment contract in that case.

My guess would be that some stretch of sovereign immunity [1] would shield DoJ.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity