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Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#41

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

rawnlq wrote: post #36
jfoutz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DOJ couldn't shut down apple. Apple has $200,000,000,000 in cash and marketable securities. DOJ's budget is only 27 billion. That's a lot of lawyer time. It's a huge waste of money, but there it is. Way less likely, but Apple could move HQ to another country. And take their secret source code and keys with them.

I wonder if there's any advantage for Apple to form their own sovereign nation to operate out of. They are already richer than many existing countries. Can't they just buy out a Singapore-sized island somewhere?

They could invade Sealand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#43

Post by koenigdavidmj »

LAMike wrote: post #34
jfoutz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DOJ couldn't shut down apple. Apple has $200,000,000,000 in cash and marketable securities. DOJ's budget is only 27 billion. That's a lot of lawyer time. It's a huge waste of money, but there it is. Way less likely, but Apple could move HQ to another country. And take their secret source code and keys with them.

The US government would respond by banning all iOS devices

And most of the US government's phones suddenly turn into expensive bricks.

I'm not sure whether a company should be 'too big to govern', but it is on occasion hilarious.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#44

Post by sdenton4 »

iamleppert wrote: post #24

I bet none of these engineers have spent a single night in jail. All it would take would be for a judge to send a single one to jail for the weekend, and they'd be happy to quickly bang out whatever the government wanted as soon as possible on Monday morning. The sentiment is nice, but I doubt the government is worried in the slightest. The government is all powerful and can be whatever it wants, lest we forget.

Meh. I've spent time in jail after getting picked up at a protest. All charges eventually dropped. Knowing you're there for the right reasons, with strong outside support makes a huge difference. I'd gladly take some jail time on a fight like this.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#45

Post by ludamad »

iamleppert wrote: post #24

I bet none of these engineers have spent a single night in jail. All it would take would be for a judge to send a single one to jail for the weekend, and they'd be happy to quickly bang out whatever the government wanted as soon as possible on Monday morning. The sentiment is nice, but I doubt the government is worried in the slightest. The government is all powerful and can be whatever it wants, lest we forget.

And yet we need people to be this bold.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#47

Post by kabdib »

smitherfield wrote: post #31
kabdib wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HR to security engineer: "You're quitting? That's a shame. Um . . . Tim Cook has a beach house he wouldn't mind you using for a while. Can you walk his dog?" My point is, the individuals won't suffer.

When you get a lawful court order, you comply with it. To do otherwise would result in massive fines and quite possibly executives being criminally charged. If the Apple security engineers want to quit on principle, then it truly would be on principle; there is absolutely no way Apple's legal department would allow them to ever be rehired or offered any compensation/gifts beyond a standard severance package. If engin…

But "great expense" enters into the all-writs test. That would have to be re-examined.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#48

Post by pdkl95 »

caf wrote: post #32
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

Well, if you can draft people to go over to Vietnam and be shot at by the NVA...

I just mentioned how this could be interpreted as a draft to my mother who grew up watching the Vietnam draft, and she immediately brought up an interesting question: "Can you be a conscientious objector?"

Given that nobody is being put in a position where they might have to use deadly force, the usual pacifist or religious arguments don't apply. While suspect it would be hard to extend the concept to the orders given to Apple, the fact that the engineers involved would even consider resignation make it clear how strongly they object to the order.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#49

Post by saulrh »

rawnlq wrote: post #36
jfoutz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DOJ couldn't shut down apple. Apple has $200,000,000,000 in cash and marketable securities. DOJ's budget is only 27 billion. That's a lot of lawyer time. It's a huge waste of money, but there it is. Way less likely, but Apple could move HQ to another country. And take their secret source code and keys with them.

I wonder if there's any advantage for Apple to form their own sovereign nation to operate out of. They are already richer than many existing countries. Can't they just buy out a Singapore-sized island somewhere?

You know, cyberpunk fiction always theorized that corporations would buy their own sovereignty for economic advantage or removing pesky laws against child labor, the first amendment, or slavery. I never expected them to do it in pure, honest self-defense.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#50

Post by harryh »

cortesoft wrote: post #37
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

Or, lets say they complete the task... and it doesn't work. Then what?

Then they explain why it doesn't work to a judge and the judge decides if it doesn't work for a good reason or if it doesn't work because someone intentionally screwed it up.

If it was for a good reason then welp. Sometimes shit doesn't work. Oh well.

If they intentionally screwed it up then they could be found in contempt of court and fined and/or jailed.

In either case the would be asked to try again if that was feasible.

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