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Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#101

Post by melvinmt »

studentrob wrote: post #79
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

> They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act.

Apple's revenue is $658 million per day (2015), not sure if they care too much about "hundreds of thousands".

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#102

Post by jnbiche »

studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

> I don't think we would live in a forced back door world for too long. After another 2, 4, or 8 years, we will eventually realize that giving the government a back door to the iPhone did not give it a back door to the myriad of other encrypted communications tools out there. Terrorists will find other ways to hide their communications.

So you really think the government will have gathered all that power, only to readily hand it back?

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#103

Post by tacos »

"Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist"

Um... no. Perhaps until they get a whiff of a professional, um, "motivator" in the guise of an FBI agent or carefully-chosen warden. Some of you guys crack under the pressure of solving a C++ warning. The guy who upvotes every "Ten things about being an Introvert" post at HN will last precisely ten seconds when presented with that reality.

I admire a good hunger strike every now and then but this case has been mismanaged by both sides. Slippery slopes and domino theories but really -- you're gonna rot in jail versus coughing up a pin code to protect the privacy of a dead terrorist? This could have been narrowed, should have been narrowed, and an anonymous post card with four digits on it could end the standoff. And that's the way it's always been done. Apple seems ignorant of this reality and they are going to pay a dear price for their position -- even before they incur the cost of forcing employees into an ethical rat trap.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#104

Post by nhangen »

studentrob wrote: post #79
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

What if Apple moves their HQ out of the country...

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#106

Post by studentrob »

shawn-furyan wrote: post #93
studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

> engineers need not fall on their swords I would quibble with this characterization. Security engineers may well improve their employment prospects and professional visibility by publicly demonstrating that they are unwilling to do work that is counter to the mission of securing systems. It seems likely to me that this sort of highly public gesture would be personally profitable, rather than a net sacrifice.

Ultimately the decision is up to those engineers. I'm just sharing my opinion. I've left former employers on moral grounds and later realized I could've resolved those differences within myself and effected change in ways other than quitting.

Quitting doesn't save Apple. Does it help your job prospects as a security engineer? I'm not so sure about that either, but then again I'm not a security employer.

Hypothetically, if I were, then as an employer I might be more interested in the guy who stuck it out working with the government at Apple. He'd be able to give me a heads up on what conversations are like with the government and what the government might be able to impose on my business.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#107

Post by hysan »

harryh wrote: post #50
cortesoft wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, lets say they complete the task... and it doesn't work. Then what?

Then they explain why it doesn't work to a judge and the judge decides if it doesn't work for a good reason or if it doesn't work because someone intentionally screwed it up. If it was for a good reason then welp. Sometimes shit doesn't work. Oh well. If they intentionally screwed it up then they could be found in contempt of court and fined and/or jailed. In either case the would be asked to try again if that was fe…

But how would a judge have the technical know-how to make that determination? If the answer is to have security experts listen in an make the call, would that even be legal since one of the requirements is to allow Apple to keep this in-house for fear of leaking said code? One last final question, if they do force the engineers to come in and explain themselves over and over to the government's satisfaction, that will increase the time commitment from key members of Apple. At what point would the questioning push the original request into "unreasonable burden" territory which would counter the All Writs' Act's own requirement?

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#108

Post by studentrob »

jnbiche wrote: post #102
studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

> I don't think we would live in a forced back door world for too long. After another 2, 4, or 8 years, we will eventually realize that giving the government a back door to the iPhone did not give it a back door to the myriad of other encrypted communications tools out there. Terrorists will find other ways to hide their communications. So you really think the government will have gathered all that power, only to rea…

Well, eventually people will realize they can just download an encrypted communications tool right?

I'm not 100% sure about what happens after 2/4/8 years. That scenario also relies on a really informed public to fight back and care.

This is why I and a few other engineers are forming a grassroots campaign to support encryption. If you'd like to get involved, send me an email at stillastudent on google's email service

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#109

Post by lojack »

saulrh wrote: post #99
studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

> I don't think we would live in a forced back door world for too long. After another 2, 4, or 8 years, we will eventually realize that giving the government a back door to the iPhone did not give it a back door to the myriad of other encrypted communications tools out there. Terrorists will find other ways to hide their communications. I'm going to disagree with you here. Didn't we think, back in 2001, that we'd onl…

How exactly are they supposed to permanently remove all semblance of privacy? Short of infiltrating popular open source projects in plain view and proving the (potentially) unprovable, I don't see how this is possible.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#110

Post by hysan »

pdkl95 wrote: post #48
caf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you can draft people to go over to Vietnam and be shot at by the NVA...

I just mentioned how this could be interpreted as a draft to my mother who grew up watching the Vietnam draft, and she immediately brought up an interesting question: "Can you be a conscientious objector?" Given that nobody is being put in a position where they might have to use deadly force, the usual pacifist or religious arguments don't apply. While suspect it would be hard to extend the concept to the orders give…

> the usual pacifist or religious arguments don't apply

Unless they are atheist/agnostic and claim that this is a core belief for them. Not every atheist/agnostic is outspoken nor do they all share the same beliefs. It would be interesting to force the courts to make a judgement on the differences between the moral tenants atheists/agnostics follow and that of established religions.

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