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Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

theguardian.com

71–80 of 438 posts

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#71
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it worked out quite the way you said: http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-b... Obligatory un-zeroed-axis warning, but the point stands.

Terribly cherry-picked charts there. The UK had a spike in homicides in 2003, so what? The overall trend is clearly downwards. The 2009 firearm homicide rate is less than half the avg. rate for the 90's and I believe it has only gone down further since (cherry picked date ranges). Ireland had an increase in homicides following gun bans in the 70's? And it was the gun ban that caused it, not the Troubles? Likewise Jam…

Just google "gun crime rates in the UK". All the stats I've seen, and what I've been lead to believe in the news, is that gun crime rates have dramatically increased since the handgun ban (and illegal gun ownership has also increased). That's not to imply cause and effect, but I don't see any evidence that the handgun ban did anything to curb gun crime.

Licensing rules were already very stringent at the time - you just can't compare it to the US - and Dunblane was a feak incident. I'm not aware of one like it before or since in the UK.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#72
post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

I don't know anyone who is pro-gun that is going to give up his gun as long as there is a terrorism threat to his family and country. Politicians need to squelch the terrorism war chanting if they ever want any form of gun control to pass in the U.S.

No one but scared liberals want "gun control". Freedom-loving Americans want elected officials to enforce the existing laws, not create new ones out of fear.

Registration is the first step to disarmament. Look back no further than Janet Reno, thankfully no longer in her position, who famously said that the actual goal is disarmament of the population. A certain venomous Democrat presidential hopeful has also echoed this sentiment publicly, recently stating on the record that only police and military should own handguns. Why on Earth would anyone vote for someone who wants to take away freedoms enshrined in the Constitution?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#73
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you perhaps considered that the treatment of terrorism is "purely sensationalistic" as well? The argument against terrorism shouldn't be "cheapened", but it should have far less value than it currently does. There are far more pressing issues, some of which will actually decrease the threat of terrorism. (for example: global access to education and healthcare, as well as moderate, tolerant leadership will decrea…

Terrorism is almost by definition sensationalist. The argument I referred to as cheapened was the argument being made in the article against guns. Both sides of the gun argument are very passionate. In order for either to make headway with the other they have to avoid starting with hyperbole. Instead, all you get is both sides shouting at each other.

As an Australian I find the gun debate in the US confusing. I think there should be more attention on the middle ground's point of view, as the arguments on both extreme sides are not realistic (In current US culture). On the pro-gun side there is a resistance to the idea that gun-control will limit the number of gun-related deaths ("the criminals will just get guns on the black market") and on the anti-gun side there seems to be willful ignorance of the fact that guns seem to be already prevalent in the US culture, and many US homes.

My personal view is that guns should be controlled to a greater degree than motor vehicles, and ammunition should be even more closely monitored. In Australia we still have gun related injuries and deaths, but they're almost always illegal guns involved. We tend to not have toddler related gun crimes.

Gun control doesn't mean you can't have a gun. It means that the gun you have is subject to restrictions.

Same as car control doesn't mean you can't have a car, but you do everything you can to stop your three year old from driving it down the motorway.

EDIT: I feel like I should describe the uses of guns I feel are acceptable (given a modern agrarian viewpoint)

1: Killing any (non endangered) animal causing harm to your livelihood.

2: Killing any (non endangered) animal you are going to eat.

3: Self defense.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#74

I always hate these kind of articles. As a US citizen there's only rule when it comes to firearms and that's the 2nd Amendment: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Until a new Amendment is passed to revoke this individual right, all arguments are invalid.

So until a law is changed, it's invalid to argue for changing that law?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#75

I always hate these kind of articles. As a US citizen there's only rule when it comes to firearms and that's the 2nd Amendment: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Until a new Amendment is passed to revoke this individual right, all arguments are invalid.

[deleted]

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#76
What interests me about the gun debate (if one can call it that), is that there are ways of dying that are considered acceptable risks and ways of dying that are not. If you are driving your kids across town and get t-boned by a drunk driver and everyone dies, that is considered a tragedy. But no one will advocate giving up driving. Something really bad happened, everyone move on with your lives.

Or when a relative dies because of a medical error, they might be rage at the particular doctor at fault, but there isn't a general outcry against hospitals or doctors. Everyone will still urge you to go to the ER at first signs of a serious problem.

But if a lunatic shoots a few people in a public place, then guns should just be banned altogether and there is a general outcry and the POTUS needs to visit the victims to console them.

Maybe someone can enlighten me why the risk of gun deaths is so much less acceptable (to a portion of the population) than the risk of death by automobile.

EDIT: Skiing is purely entertainment. About 41.5 people die a year in skiing accidents[1]. This, too, is considered an acceptable risk.

[1] http://www.nsaa.org/media/68045/NSAA-Facts-About-Skiing-Snow...

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#77
post #71
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terribly cherry-picked charts there. The UK had a spike in homicides in 2003, so what? The overall trend is clearly downwards. The 2009 firearm homicide rate is less than half the avg. rate for the 90's and I believe it has only gone down further since (cherry picked date ranges). Ireland had an increase in homicides following gun bans in the 70's? And it was the gun ban that caused it, not the Troubles? Likewise Jam…

Just google "gun crime rates in the UK". All the stats I've seen, and what I've been lead to believe in the news, is that gun crime rates have dramatically increased since the handgun ban (and illegal gun ownership has also increased). That's not to imply cause and effect, but I don't see any evidence that the handgun ban did anything to curb gun crime. Licensing rules were already very stringent at the time - you ju…

Nope, quite the opposite, gun deaths of all sorts are down substantially. Less than half what they used to be.

And Dunblane wasn't a freak incident here's one from 1987: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre

Here's some data. Very clear downward trends since 1997.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_a...

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_g...

Here's the Australian chart just for good measure:

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/rate_of_al...

Not to mention that of course "gun crime / illegal possession" went up. We'd just made it all illegal by definition...

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#78
post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

I don't think it worked out quite the way you said: http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-b... Obligatory un-zeroed-axis warning, but the point stands.

I'm not familiar with that institution so I might be committing a blunder here, but their reporting seems incredibly biased for a "research" institution, and I can't help but wonder what methodology they're using to classify their data.

E.g. take this article: http://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/compared-to-europe-the-us-f... . They're mentioning:

- 303 deaths in the EU. This is simply an incorrect result, it counts victims from Norway, which is not an EU member.

- Only 4 mass shootings in the US in 2015. I don't live in the US and I can name at least 6 that made the headlines over here in Europe (e.g. the Harris County mass shooting isn't included).

- Hundreds of victims in France -- which is correct in terms of numbers, but most of them were victims of terrorist attacks, not mentally-deranged students who bought a rifle one sunny morning and started firing around. Most of those incidents barely match their own definition: "four or more people killed in a public place, and not in the course of committing another crime, and not involving struggles over sovereignty".

- A high number of victims for Norway, all of which are due to the Breivik incident. Limiting the debate to the Obama administration has the convenient consequence of keeping Norway's figures high. It would literally be twice as low if it were to include the Bush administration as well; I suspect the figure for the US wouldn't be twice as low in that case.

Besides, the conclusion is highly debatable. It tries to obtain that "US becoming safer compared to Europe" but:

- It does not include data from all European countries

- It "statistically" (i.e. incorrectly) conflates countries with widely differing legislation and enforcement status. This is very blatantly wrong: Serbia, second in that list, has a very strong gun culture and very liberal gun ownership laws compared to other European countries. My Serbian friends can carry guns that are only issued to members of the police and military where I live.

I don't know enough about how things are in the US to challenge that institution's opinions on the US, but their analysis of the European landscape is shaky at best, betrays a very obvious cluelesness about European laws and Europe in general, and frankly, I think the numbers are nicely tuned to give useful statistics.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#79
Obvious answer: Ban toddlers rather than end-to-end encryption.

On a more serious note, the gun deaths in America are a cultural problem (being careless with weapons, not locking them away properly, etc). No ban will fix culture. There are ways of improving the world without bans. I loathe the kneejerk reactions like "someone was harmed by X - BAN IT FOR EVERYONE!". What happened to self-responsibility? Why can't we just educate people and encourage them to train in the safe handling of guns? It's not that hard.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#80

I always hate these kind of articles. As a US citizen there's only rule when it comes to firearms and that's the 2nd Amendment: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Until a new Amendment is passed to revoke this individual right, all arguments are invalid.

My understanding, and someone correct me if I am wrong, is the 2nd amendment was in no way held to be a generic right for all to bear arms until the 1970s.

The NRA created the gun lobby out of nothing at all.

EDIT: Found some links, it was 1977. here's one: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/nra-guns-seco...

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