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America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

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Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#101

Post by Swizec »

esaym wrote: post #32

I don't expect the public school system to teach my children anything. Hence why they won't be attending. Most of the schools I attended growing up were completely useless. Filthy, full of drugs and gangs. Sadly I even listened to some of my teachers more than I did my own parents (indoctrination) which I now see lead me down the wrong path. I don't expect the public school to teach my kids any kind of career skills…

As a publicly educated kid from Eastern Europe. We had programming classes as on-school extracurriculars in Pascal when I was 12. In the late 90's.

We started with Logo at 9. In 1996.

Do public schools in other countries not do this kind of stuff?

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#102

Post by bpp »

tcdent wrote: post #63
esaym wrote: post #32

I don't expect the public school system to teach my children anything. Hence why they won't be attending. Most of the schools I attended growing up were completely useless. Filthy, full of drugs and gangs. Sadly I even listened to some of my teachers more than I did my own parents (indoctrination) which I now see lead me down the wrong path. I don't expect the public school to teach my kids any kind of career skills…

As a publicly educated kid who started working when he was 15-1/2 (the legal minimum age in CA for a work permit at the time), I'd encourage you to rethink the importance of child-like innocence. Not that I regret my choices, but that 13 is just a little too young to be career-oriented, and 16 is probably the bare minimum. I was into computers at that age, but if my decisions were based on profitability or profession…

I once had a "lifeguarding" job that was 20% making sure people didn't drown, 60% janitorial work and pool equipment maintenance with toxic chemicals, and 20% listening to snotty members of the country club say incredibly tone-deaf things. I cried more than once. The life lessons were invaluable.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#103

Post by dpatru »

esaym wrote: post #32

I don't expect the public school system to teach my children anything. Hence why they won't be attending. Most of the schools I attended growing up were completely useless. Filthy, full of drugs and gangs. Sadly I even listened to some of my teachers more than I did my own parents (indoctrination) which I now see lead me down the wrong path. I don't expect the public school to teach my kids any kind of career skills…

I think that teaching your children how to make money while they are still young is one of the most valuable things you can do for them. This, along with the ability to learn independently, will allow them to avoid a lot of misery for the rest of their lives.

There are many people who are doomed to stressful lives living paycheck to paycheck because early in life they didn't learn a lucrative trade and they didn't learn how to learn. Once you are out of school and have a job and maybe a family, just the day-to-day demands of living can drain most of your energy and time.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#104

Post by ryandrake »

moultano wrote: post #35
hackuser wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outcomes vary greatly by school, zip code, and socio-economic class. Are children in the wrong zip code just lazy? Why do the children in poor families perform so much worse than in rich families? It doesn't, by any measure, appear to be a consequence of the children's efforts.

>It doesn't, by any measure, appear to be a consequence of the children's efforts. What basis do you have for saying that?

The best ranked public schools are consistently in the richest neighborhoods, and the worst ranked ones are consistently in the poorest neighborhoods. I don't think this can be disputed. So, what's more likely?

1. Rich neighborhoods result in well-funded schools with the resources to provide a superior education, better than the not-well-funded schools that are in poor neighborhoods.

Or

2. A superior education comes from "children's efforts" and kids that put in a lot of effort coincidentally all live in the same school districts, which also coincidentally are located in the richest neighborhoods?

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#105

Post by electic »

hackuser wrote: post #19

When it comes to technology skills, the story gets worse. The U.S. came in last place — right below Poland. The study looked at basic technology tasks: things like using email, buying and returning items online, using a drop-down menu, naming a file on a computer or sending a text message. Something to consider about your users.

This is very true. If you are a developer or a designer, I highly recommend you go to the Apple store and hang out for a few hours by the Genius Bar. It is eye opening to see the questions that people ask. I have a lot of respect for Genius Bar employees who calmly explain how to use email, their iPhone, or their laptops. You learn so much about UX and user's thinking by spending some time there.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#106

Post by murjinsee »

squeaky-clean wrote: post #98
hackuser wrote: post #19

When it comes to technology skills, the story gets worse. The U.S. came in last place — right below Poland. The study looked at basic technology tasks: things like using email, buying and returning items online, using a drop-down menu, naming a file on a computer or sending a text message. Something to consider about your users.

I was at a Walgreens a little while ago, and there was a lady buying some sort of cable for a camera. I remember her literally asking the store clerk, "Will this work with a laptop, or does it have to be a computer?" I bring up this anecdote whenever someone else asserts " is common sense, no one could be confused by it". Help your parents with tech support at least once a year (or your friends' parents if yours are…

Thanks for saying this! I work with phones and it's sad to hear people talk about the ever-widening gap technology places between them and their children.

Too many people from younger generations make fun of their parents for being technically illiterate. I spend an hour a week at least bringing my mom up to speed on Google Photos, iOS content management, etc.

It feels good seeing somebody learn how to do things for themselves, and you should hear your parents brag about you for your minor assistance.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#107

Post by roymurdock »

gregatragenet3 wrote: post #24

Of course the US does poorly in this survey. The survey measures life skills. We've spent the last decades changing our schools from teaching life skills to pure college prep. A terrible disservice to young people. Here's some sample questions http://www.oecd.org/site/piaac/Education%20and%20Skills_onli... .

One has to wonder...does it really matter what you learn in school? Relative to who you meet, and what brand you get to slap on your resume at the end of the day? Do you remember anything you learned in AP Calc or APUSH all those years ago?

I think it's important to learn how to think. But you can always do that in your 4 years at college, once you get into an ivy league, right? Who needs life skills when you can get a cushy job straight out of school and just pay others to cook, clean, drive, etc. for you?

Isn't it every parent's dream that their child's life be better than their own?

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#108

Post by tim333 »

Houshalter wrote: post #39
Cookingboy wrote: post #12

And in this age of information and technology, many of these people are voting to decide the next leader of the only superpower left on Earth. This may sound grossly elitist, but democracy can be super scary sometimes.

Democracy is a really shitty form of government. It prevents tyrants, and it prevents a single party from holding power for too long. Which are great benefits over, e.g. monarchies. But the average voter isn't informed enough to really understand all the issues. So who wins isn't really correlated with who is best or who is right. In my ideal form of government, the representatives would not be elected, but randomly…

Or have the next version of AlphaGo run things.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#109

Post by Houshalter »

thwarted wrote: post #50
Houshalter wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is a really shitty form of government. It prevents tyrants, and it prevents a single party from holding power for too long. Which are great benefits over, e.g. monarchies. But the average voter isn't informed enough to really understand all the issues. So who wins isn't really correlated with who is best or who is right. In my ideal form of government, the representatives would not be elected, but randomly…

A "representative democracy" is one specifically where the average voter doesn't need to be informed enough to really understand all the issues, and that's supposed to be its advantage. In contrast, direct democracy is best when all the voters (have the time to) understand the issues. But that's not very pragmatic, so we do representative democracy. But of course, that has its own issues, as what to understand moves…

I understand the purpose of representative democracy. In theory voters vote for representatives instead of policies, but in reality they do vote for policies. And in practice representatives to pander to voters, and various other interests.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#110

Post by dba7dba »

squeaky-clean wrote: post #98
hackuser wrote: post #19

When it comes to technology skills, the story gets worse. The U.S. came in last place — right below Poland. The study looked at basic technology tasks: things like using email, buying and returning items online, using a drop-down menu, naming a file on a computer or sending a text message. Something to consider about your users.

I was at a Walgreens a little while ago, and there was a lady buying some sort of cable for a camera. I remember her literally asking the store clerk, "Will this work with a laptop, or does it have to be a computer?" I bring up this anecdote whenever someone else asserts " is common sense, no one could be confused by it". Help your parents with tech support at least once a year (or your friends' parents if yours are…

Forget about tech supporting your parents to see the gap.

I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to explain to my wife (elementary school teacher) why I need to spend much of my spare time on my laptop to try to keep up in the IT/tech industry. She just can't understand how I can 'train' myself new, marketable skills when she just has to go to official training sessions in class/lecture settings a few times per year.

Pretty frustrating.

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