Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug • Hacker News Board

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#231

Post by andrepd » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 12:47 AM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #124

justsaysmthng wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because your addiction is also your wife's problem, your parent's problem, your company's problem. Addiction affects more than just the addict. And addicts are in need of help - while it is easy to think that "they like being high, it's their choice", in fact the addicts hate their habit more than anything, yet they can't stop using without external help. Would you help a person with a broken leg ? Why ? Well, that's…

Not all addicts are in need of help. And many addicts really do enjoy being high or otherwise find opiates help them through life, work, etc. and do not want to quit. And out of those that do want to quit, I'd bet a large amount of it is due to the high prices the legal scheme enforces. With reasonable prices, the biggest issue with being an opiate user disappears.

That's just not true. Opiate addiction is a very serious condition. There are 100 bigger issues than "price". No study ever found anything to back up that claim.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#232

Post by ArkyBeagle » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 12:49 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #119

chimeracoder wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The libertarian argument against prohibition boils down to this: The government can't stop people from doing anything, it can only punish people after they've done it. Substance abuse is something we'd really rather people didn't do I am not a libertarian, but I have worked in drug policy reform advocacy groups, and a number of my colleagues were libertarians. This is not at all an accurate description of the proto…

Yeah, the libertarian argument is basically that people ought to be able to do what they want with their own bodies, including consuming drugs, and that it's not the government's business if they endanger themselves. If drugs become legalized, the system that gets created will not fit the libertarian vision.

At least the bellwethers in Colorado et al seem pretty consistent with what libertarians might think ok.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#233

Post by ArkyBeagle » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 12:50 AM UTC

6stringmerc wrote: post #91

twblalock wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

Replace "drug use" with "mental health" to broaden the discussion and it eventually becomes apparent that societal issues such as individual well-being, whether drug addiction, mental instability, or a morbidly obese inducing lifestyle has costs that even a staunch libertarian would be wont to address at a systemic level, not just a notion of letting 'the private sector' or charity do the work.

"Mental health" has a troubled past. Many problem abusers are in fact self-medicating.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#234

Post by ArkyBeagle » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 12:52 AM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #159

vixen99 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult to believe that 'better social support' doesn't mean a government spending more money. Is the tax payer expected to fund people to 'safely enjoy drugs in moderation'?

Why not tax the drugs themselves to provide this support?

Why not require insurance to cover the costs? It is, after all, a product liability concern.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#235

Post by ArkyBeagle » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 12:54 AM UTC

herge wrote: post #146

leeleelee wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another interesting thing about the war on drugs is that during prohibition, the constitution was amended for the government to legally be able stop the sale of alcohol. On the other hand, for other "hard" drugs, there is nothing in the constitution that supports the criminalization of drugs. Unless I am missing something. Completely aside from that fact, I do agree that it should be treated as a public health issue.…

There's nothing in the U.S. constitution about airplanes either, and yet the FAA still exists. However, the U.S. constitution does talk at length about both congress who can write laws (like the laws banning hard drugs), and the judicial branch who can overturn laws that contravene the constitution. The 18th amendment was added to the constitution not by some legislative need, but to make a politicized statement wher…

The Constitutional provenance for the FAA is pretty good. It at least falls under the Commerce Clause. Flying from New York to LA is interstate, and it's commerce.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#236

Post by ArkyBeagle » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 12:57 AM UTC

leeleelee wrote: post #132

krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

Another interesting thing about the war on drugs is that during prohibition, the constitution was amended for the government to legally be able stop the sale of alcohol. On the other hand, for other "hard" drugs, there is nothing in the constitution that supports the criminalization of drugs. Unless I am missing something. Completely aside from that fact, I do agree that it should be treated as a public health issue.…

The drug schedule is an act of executive fiat. But there are various legislative supports for it. Not all law has to take root in the Constitution, it merely has to have never been challenged or, having been challenged, stood the test.

The 18th was a different sort of action. If I recall correctly, it was reasonably well known that nothing short of an Amendment would suffice. Either that or Wayne Wheeler just wanted to see if it could be done.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#237

Post by nickff » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 1:11 AM UTC

cbd1984 wrote: post #198

md224 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarians like free markets, right? Has anyone tried applying free market principles to drug use? Perhaps if all drugs were legal, people would be able to find less harmful drugs instead of being forced to abuse what's currently legal, and medical costs would go down. I remember reading an anecdote about a guy who stopped drinking by taking occasional painkillers. It scratched the same itch, so he didn't feel the…

> Libertarians like free markets, right? Has anyone tried applying free market principles to drug use? In a completely free market, there are no labeling laws, and no way to enforce purity until after someone has died or been harmed by a bad product and has an estate or next-of-kin capable of suing the producer. And that, of course, assumes the producer is both still in business and is going to be dissuaded from maki…

This is plainly wrong. Free markets allow for testing and approval agencies which do not need to be run by the government. Think of companies like UL which test products before they go to market, and companies like Consumer Reports which test them afterwards. These companies and more can operate to ensure safe goods and services, probably at a much lower cost, and with higher quality than the government. Do not forget that there have been drug and food safety issues under the FDA's watch, and each time, there has been little to no accountability.

An interesting related question would be whether people prefer to err on the side of type 1 statistical errors or type 2 errors, and whether the balance of errors would change under a more free-market structure.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#238

Post by herge » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 1:37 AM UTC

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #235

herge wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing in the U.S. constitution about airplanes either, and yet the FAA still exists. However, the U.S. constitution does talk at length about both congress who can write laws (like the laws banning hard drugs), and the judicial branch who can overturn laws that contravene the constitution. The 18th amendment was added to the constitution not by some legislative need, but to make a politicized statement wher…

The Constitutional provenance for the FAA is pretty good. It at least falls under the Commerce Clause. Flying from New York to LA is interstate, and it's commerce.

And what about flying from New York to Albany, or flying a quadcopter in your back yard?

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#239

Post by ImTalking » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 1:46 AM UTC

bronz wrote: post #216

robryan wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making them illegal hasn't stopped anyone.

I think that there are two kinds of drug users, basically. People use drugs because of hardship and people who use drugs because of boredom. When it comes to the hardship camp, I think the best solution is to alleviate the hardship. This means making sure that everyone has a well paying, respectable job and making sure public infrastructure is healthy and so on. When it comes to boredom users though, it's hard to com…

You have no idea why people use drugs, so don't even try.

"When it comes to boredom users though, it's hard to come up with a solution besides punishment."

Wow. Why should 'bored' people who use drugs need punishment?

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#240

Post by robbiep » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 1:49 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #64

evincarofautumn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

Your argument is (in my opinion) naively individualistic.

You argue that someone's actions should not create any obligations for support. But that denies the interconnected nature of society. If someone gets injured and is unable to work, and has the misfortune of living in the United States (as opposed to Canada or Australia) then he cost of fixing them may be unbearable, meaning that a potential useful human life has now been subjected to the sidelines, rendering them unable to contribute to society. Thus we have a responsibility to provide safety nets to restore them to health and a functional member of society.

In the same way, addiction and substance abuse damage otherwise useful members of society. Not everyone will fall so far from the tree, but we have a responsibility to provide the institutions necessary to try and get them back on track. When you're talking about illegal drugs, the best way to do this would be through funnelling taxation revenue from sale of previously illegal drugs into rehab and outreach programs (as with THC sales in the Netherlands, where 99% of hard drug users are linked in with social services).