Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#341

Post by tim333 » Mon, Mar 07, 2016, 9:50 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

>Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles.

Against that "Musk guaranteed the Model S would hold 50% of its value after three years, and he backed the assertion with his own private money."

which implies he's pretty keen on a healthy aftermarket.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#342

Post by prostoalex » Mon, Mar 07, 2016, 9:51 AM UTC

zitterbewegung wrote: post #194

usaphp wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But think about it from another perspective: someone purchases Tesla car, decided to service it himself without sufficient knowledge, then later he resells his car to another individual, the person who buys his car enables the autopilot mode on a car and because of the poor service quality/mistake the original owner did to a car the autopilot goes crazy and steers your car into a brick wall, everyone will blame Tesla…

I don't think other people would blame Tesla. People don't blame the manufacturer when someone services a car and doesn't put on the breaks correctly and causes an accident.

Remember how someone claimed their Toyota's brakes refused cooperating, and even though Toyota managed to prove it was the user-installed floor mat issue their sales fell through the floor and Toyota had to rekindle them with discounts, 0% financing and service guarantees?

People don't do deep research and follow-ups on automotive incidents. Best-case scenario is they have someone do it for them, like Consumer Reports. Typical-case is they see a car with a logo on TV or on top of a salvage truck and they make a mental note to avoid that manufacturer.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#343

Post by mcv » Mon, Mar 07, 2016, 10:02 AM UTC

sklogic wrote: post #25

Not sure singling out Tesla is fair. Pretty much all the modern (built in 21st century) cars are far less serviceable and far less modular than they used to be before. The military designs are the only exception from this unfortunate trend, for the obvious reasons.

I've always loved the idea of the Citroen 2CV, which was famously easy to repair (sometimes with some string and chewing gum), and trivial to modify. But it's an old car and is not being made anymore, and no modern car really seems to fit that niche.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#344

Post by prostoalex » Mon, Mar 07, 2016, 10:14 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

The battery pack comprises such a large portion of the car's value that the value proposition of a used electric vehicle is mainly "battery pack + miscellaneous". Tesla is experimenting with hot-swapping the battery pack (theoretically allowing you to exchange old batteries for brand spanking new) https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/battery-swap-sta... but so far we don't hear any plans of wide support for this.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#345

Post by maratd » Mon, Mar 07, 2016, 1:40 PM UTC

conceit wrote: post #325

maratd wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile. > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line LOL. I sense hurt feelings. > no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out Why would it need an OBD-2 po…

> 5. American designed, American built, no $$$ going to questionable oil interests. I don't see what that has to do with America, except for 'Murica f'yeah > 7. Over-The-Air software updates that actually add useful features. No, I don't need to go to the service center to update my software. LOL! ROFL > 8. It drives itself? Autopilot! Nice! Don't many cars have that to the limited degree already allowed by law?

> I don't see what that has to do with America, except for 'Murica f'yeah

I enjoy buying locally built products when possible, especially when those products are superior to anything else available.

> ROFL

Get off the floor and tell me what's so funny.

> Don't many cars have that to the limited degree already allowed by law?

No. Model S and Model X are the only cars available that drive themselves. Some other cars have cruise control that will stay within the lane, but it won't change lanes, break, or accelerate based on traffic conditions.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#346

Post by loopbit » Mon, Mar 07, 2016, 1:41 PM UTC

wetmore wrote: post #176

loopbit wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had read Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance you'd known that it has very little to do with actual motorcycle maintenance, apart of using it as a tool to make its point.

This is a kind of dickish way to reply. Yeah it's not the original point but there is a discussion of this issue in it IIRC.

It may have come across dickish, It was not my intention. I had no time to go in more detail and just left it as a note.

As for the issue at hand, yes, it's mentioned nearly at the beginning of the book, when the narrator is discussing the motorcycles each character has and why they chose it, mentioning the two views[0]. If I recall correctly, there's no discussion, it's simply there to give an example of the concept of quality that the author is trying to define. Anyone thinking that the book has anything to do with actual motorcycle maintenance (or worse, trying to use the advice) didn't understood the ideas and concepts of the book.

[0] The tinkerer, open view, exemplified with an old motorcycle (of which I don't remember the make) vs the "it just works", closed view, using a brand new BMW.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#347

Post by norea-armozel » Mon, Mar 07, 2016, 2:20 PM UTC

There's always been a push in the automotive industry to make parts in cars that the average person can't replace or repair easily. If anything, this makes more money for the automakers (like Tesla) because they can setup all kinds of service licenses and the like at their leisure. And if a particular product line gets too long in the tooth, then you just killed off any authorized servicing and parts. Now you got an instant customer if they keep thinking it's worth it. Especially if Tesla were to institute some sort of trade in program that would be cheap to finance but great for PR especially if it touts the recycling angle. Frankly, I'm surprised no one would think such a possible outcome was going to happen. Elon's not dumb, he's a businessman first and foremost. Telsa cars aren't a charity. You buy them to feel good, they are nice fun cars to drive, then when the time comes you're likely to get bored with it anyways and want to trade for the newest model because you're a good little consumer, right?

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#348

Post by rblatz » Mon, Mar 07, 2016, 2:41 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #303

rblatz wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would wager that the vast majority of non-enthusiasts do not have a "business they trust and have a good relationship with" that isn't the dealer.

That wager might go pretty bad for you - there is a real lot of independent shops which aren't dealers and they have a lot of business. Moreover, these shops are often significantly cheaper than dealers with same or higher speed and reliability. I've seen dealer trying to change me several times more for the same job than independent shop - dealers seem have their set prices and enough business "by default" not to ca…

I wasn't arguing against independent shops, im well aware that they are capable of preforming excellent service. But the reputation of the shady mechanic exists for the same reason the reputation of the shady used car dealer exists. Cars are complex, and the average person doesn't have enough time to fully understand them. That is why YourMechanic was able to just raise 24 million in funding (I believe it was that much, I am on my phone right now) there is a huge market of people that don't want to do the research, or put up with the perceived risk of finding an independent mechanic.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#349

Post by ufukbay » Mon, Mar 07, 2016, 2:47 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #339

Amezarak wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least for me, it's not about souping the car up, it's about doing repairs and maintenance myself because a) it's cheaper and b) it's more convenient. If I knew I was going to have to drive a car to the dealership anytime something went wrong, I would not buy that car. It's a big hassle (especially if the dealership is any distance away) and almost always outrageously expensive for anything outside of warranty. And…

Same here. We recently bought a second hand Prius at an official dealer (because new is unreasonably expensive, we do care about emissions, and I think we got some warranty from the official dealer). Half a year later, the brakes need to be replaced. Turns out not to fall under the warranty, whereas we think it's unreasonable to sell a car with brakes that need to be replaced that soon. Repair at the official dealer…

I bought a used car around 2 years ago and went to the dealer because of a problem and was shocked when he informed me about (obviously after selling the car) what everything doesn't fall under the warranty. It's probably easier to say what falls under which is the motor and transmission. Otherwise they bring the argument with wear parts which I can understand for the brakes.

It's unlucky that they sold you a car where the brakes were soon to be replaced but they are really wear parts. However I was suprised to hear that also most of the electrical stuff doesn't fall under warranty. I'm from Germany so it might be different in other countries.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#350

Post by rblatz » Mon, Mar 07, 2016, 2:55 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #308

rblatz wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how many of those people would take their car there after they switch jobs? I'm betting very few. Also things like tires and oil changes are different than major repairs.

This is a government installation. People don't switch jobs here very much. Tires and oil changes are the two biggest service jobs on cars these days, since everything else is so reliable. But on a 10-year-old car, it's entirely possible to do more substantial repairs thanks to the OBD-II service tools that are available. You can get one of these scanners for $100 now (or less for a crappier one), look up any codes t…

I'm well aware of that, I've personally changed my own oil, replaced the starter on an ex's car, replaced my mass airflow sensor, and have my own OBD-II scanner (crappy one).

I'm not sure why this thread turned into multiple attempts to convince me that independent mechanics are a good value that can do the same or better work than a dealer. I never claimed they couldn't, I stated that I don't think most people have a trusted mechanic that isn't the dealer. So far I've gotten a lot of down votes, anecdotes, but no data. I very well could be wrong, I was stating my opinion based on what I've seen and experienced.

Look at YourMechanic, it's filling a need in the market to link independent mechanics to car owners. It is using a verified user trust model to rate them. If the vast majority of people had trusted mechanics they wouldn't be gaining much traction in the market.