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Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

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Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#251

Post by cowsandmilk »

XorNot wrote: post #214
zyxley wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think we're going to start seeing "jailbroken" Teslas soon after they start falling out of their warranty period. This seems particularly likely for the Model 3, given the likely "everyday supernerd" demographic, and simple missing features like working ODB-II interfaces [1]. 1: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/17973-Can-Mone...

ODB-II is really super focused on ICE systems though. I'm not surprised they omitted it from an all electric.

That's no reason not to pass information about speed and distance travelled over the port. I capture that information as I drive. And Tesla could easily include electric car specific information that enthusiasts would enjoy capturing.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#252

Post by semi-extrinsic »

maratd wrote: post #198
userbinator wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think that out of the thousands of people who have already bought one of these cars, there might be one out there with both the skills and desire to actually own what they paid for On the other hand, it could just be that those who want to really own their cars would not consider buying a Tesla anyway, and those who have the skills are too scared of the legal aspects. I think at the moment, electric cars are st…

> The aftermarket community for existing cars basically doesn't care about emissions --- one of the biggest attractions of an electric. You've clearly never been behind the wheel of a Tesla. Please go drive one. Emissions were literally the very last reason for buying the car for me.

Between the touch screen control screaming "Look! Cool! Future! Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback and usability when driving while ignoring fifty years of safety research but Cool!", trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line (and literally incapable of doing five laps at Laguna Seca without overheating and going into limp home mode), no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out meaning you can't even fire up Torque to check an error code before having to go to the garage, bad resale value as this article points out, literally having your head touch the car roof if you're over five foot eight and sitting in the back, etc.: can you please give us a rational reason except zero tailpipe emissions for buying a Model S over, say, a Mercedes S-class or a BMW 7-series?

I completely get that there are irrational reasons for buying things, not least of which is "OMG teh shiny future!!1!", but these aren't really suitable for debate here because they're so hugely subjective.

Edit: having read through entire TFA: Tesla will even refuse to sell you parts, and call you talking about industrial espionage, if you try and tinker with their cars. Seriously, WTF?

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#253

Post by rayiner »

ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

> To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car

It's an ideal car from my point of view. They're a necessary evil in most parts of the country, and the more they become like a 2-year contract iPhone the better.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#254

Post by lttlrck »

sschueller wrote: post #138
chrisbennet wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not uncommon for modern ECU's to need to be "coded" to work with the car.

Yes but there are also 3rd party tools available to code ECUs, keys etc. Like the VAG-COM for VW and Audi cars. I don't need to ask vw's permission to add a new key to my car.

Actually you do need to go to a VW dealer to get a new key paired to the immobilizer. It's been that way since at least 2002.

Edit: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/key-and-remote-replacement...

Tldr: You need the SKC to do it, only VW knows what the SKC is. Or you can hack the immobilizer.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#255

Post by Swizec »

frik wrote: post #125
Swizec wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should look up crash tests between cars considered safe in 1994 and modern cars. I saw one for two Renault Espace models. The old one was so crumply compared to the new one, that the new one didn't even deploy airbags because there was no need. Both got top safety ratings when new. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xQS-7heF-og

Volvo and Mercedes are known to be very safe and reliable ( and that for many decades). (Mercedes cars manufactured until 1999 last literally many decades) "Modern" safety features like airbags, ABS, security glass were first introduced by those companies many years ago. There is a reason why presidents, the pope, etc drive in such cars. The common US and EU standard crash test don't cover all real world crash situat…

I watched that episode. The Beemer's airbag deployed due to vibration from the road. That can't have been fun,

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#256

Post by dragontamer »

rayiner wrote: post #253
ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

> To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car It's an ideal car from my point of view. They're a necessary evil in most parts of the country, and the more they become like a 2-year contract iPhone the better.

If you want a 2-year contract car, then lease them and then cycle through cars.

For everyone else who makes sane financial decisions, we kind of want a car that will be repairable 10 years from now. Besides, the majority of people can't afford a new car anyway, and rely on the used-car market.

The people who buy used-cars will greatly appreciate long-term repairable cars, even if the "lease 5 cars over 10 years" crowd cycles through cars and flaunt their disposable income... someone is typically going to end up purchasing those 2-year old cars and then run with them until they die.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#257

Post by AnthonyMouse »

cperciva wrote: post #229
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is service by third party mechanics really the dominant factor in creating lemons, and not design or manufacturing defects or abusive driving by previous owners?

One of the largest factors is probably a lack of servicing. By requiring all servicing to be done by Tesla (who presumably keep records) they eliminate the "yeah I had that service done but I lost the receipt" scenario: If Tesla says that they didn't service a car, the buyer knows that it wasn't serviced.

Which the seller can mitigate by either keeping their receipts or having Tesla service the car, so the reduction in resale value would only apply to sellers who didn't do that, and then it's their own loss.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#258

Post by nkurz »

qume wrote: post #235
nkurz wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What 'jjawssd' was actually asking was an explanation of the math you used to come up with those particular numbers. He's doubting that you could pay for the gas using the interest on $30K. While you do have a point that one should pay attention to the 'cost of money', it also seems possible that you were neglecting to account for the withdrawals to purchase gas along the way. 10,000 gallons of gas in 20 years equate…

Thanks for doing the math, I didn't take the time. FWIW 3.25% happens to be exactly what a term deposit will pay here in mexico for 90 days+ I understand that banks in other countries wouldn't do that, however you don't have to take much more risk over a bank to get 3.25% in most of the world I would imagine

By the way, what's the price of gasoline currently in Mexico? My impression is that it's historically been a regulated price, but I read something a while ago that said it was moving toward deregulation. I wasn't clear if this meant the price was expected to go up or down.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#259

Post by Swizec »

userbinator wrote: post #80
qume wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, and one more thing. Go walk around the yard of a tow company. Be prepared to feel sick. You'll come away with the conclusion that the standard crash tests, which are well designed for common accidents, are still just a small minority of serious accidents. And the most horrifying thing that I came away with is the number of wrecks where there is 'car' where the passengers should be. Even in trucks and SUVs. The st…

Volvos definitely have a well-deserved reputation; for many years, their slogan was "Drive Safely", and they took it seriously. Here's another video where the Volvo's passenger compartment doesn't even change shape while the other car's is completely crushed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt0oQsRvtWI Although a downside is that, as the joke goes, "a Volvo doesn't need a crumple zone; it uses the other car." Not so…

Another issue is that of energy dissipation. Car being too stiff means passengers get to absorb the energy. Modern cars also have a lot more airbags.

Electronic stability systems also do a great job of preventing a lot of crashes.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#260

Post by toomuchtodo »

tclmeelmo wrote: post #237
toomuchtodo wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I think the convenience delta from self-driven car to "driverless" car is smaller than that from keeping living horses to regular maintenance of an automobile. The number of teenagers with driver's licenses is the lowest in history. Compound that with the 65+ cohort aging quickly, and older drivers being dangerous drivers (lower reaction time). It's not a convenience delta. Its an experience and safety delta.…

> The number of teenagers with driver's licenses is the lowest in history. The value of such a statistic is questionable given that the minimum age for a license has increased of late.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/01/19/drivers-...

http://time.com/money/4185441/millennials-drivers-licenses-g...

http://www.npr.org/2016/02/11/466178523/like-millennials-mor...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/10/14/the-m...

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2016/0120/Why-are-Mi...

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