If the resale value of an out-of-warranty Tesla ends up being essentially zero, the new ones will start to look like a pretty poor investment. This will impact Tesla's sales. You can be pretty sure that Tesla will rectify this eventually if they want to stay in business in the face of emerging competition from other electric cars.
Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars
161–170 of 367 posts
Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
My E46 3 series (BMW) would chew through these as well. OEM or knockoff.
omg dude. My E46 chews through turn signal bulbs, Final stage relays, lock actuators, and oil. I love the car but jeez.
I have a motorcycle with a low-tension engine oil ring to keep the upper cylinder lubricated at 10-15k RPM. To stop oil burn-off I recommend slowly increasing oil weight over time and monitoring burn-off. Have you considered Rotella T6?
Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
But you want a connection to Big Brother, you want free super charging, you want software updates, you want free internet access and navigation, you want the free Spotify Account. My Car wouldnt have AutoPark, Summon, Traffic Aware Cruise Control, Lane Assist, Spotify, Autopilot, 50 ekstra Horse Power and so on, without the software updates the connection to Big Brother provides. (Euro Spec S85D)
Exactly, it's like saying I want OnStar but I don't want my car to connect to them. Or I want a mobile phone but I don't want cellular network to track what cell I'm in so it can actually route calls to my phone.
No, it’s more like as if Tesla would sell mobile phones that would be limited to one cellular network.
You don’t see anyone sell or buy phones like that either – you can just switch the SIM and use it on another network.
If I want to use Apple Music, or Here navigation on my Tesla – instead of Spotify or the integrated navigation – why shouldn’t I be able to?
If I want to replace the firmware with my own (as long as it passes TÜV), why shouldn’t I be able to?
In fact, there are laws that specify I have to be able to disassemble and understand anything I buy, including any software. Any "you may not decompile" or "we will deactivate the car if you decompile the software" clauses are actually illegal in most of the EU.
Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars
#164Inherent issues with anything battery powered:
- I have 20 year old grid powered drills, saws,
routers, sawzalls, sanders
- They all work and in perfect condition
- Same period: Three sets of battery powered drills
- Technology changes: NiCd to Lithium
- Battery pack voltage/form-factor EOL
- Aftermarket batteries expensive crap
- Good motor, gearbox, chuck discarded
- Environmental impact of early EOL?
- Will they be around in 20 years?
- Will there be any parts for current cars?
- Will you have access to service manuals, software and information?
- Technology and chemistry will evolve
- No reason to make packs with 20 year old tech
- Will Tesla guarantee replacement packs in 10 to 20 years?
- Could be vehicle lifetime limiting factor
- Shame to crunch a perfectly good chassis, motor, etc.
- Potentially significant environmental impact
- Most people not qualified, even most techies
- 400~500 V DC systems are deadly dangerous
- Electric cars will be the domain of experts, not hobbyists
- High voltage, high power, high energy density
system can do horrific things in accidents
- Who wants to be the responsible party?
- Potential for advanced after-market companies
- More efficient, smaller motor controllers
- Smaller, lighter, more energy-dense battery packs
- On-board computers and entertainment systems
- Might not be viable market for another 20 years
- Tesla (and others) likely not interested in doing
this themselves, they want to sell new cars
- In 20 years all makers will have electric cars
- Multiple models per maker, multiple choices
- Buying from established makers gives you
massive sales and support infrastructure
- As market grows Tesla might have trouble reaching scale
- Tesla has a 3 to 5 year window to become mainstream
- If they fail at that they might well become irrelevant
- Battery manufacturers (Panasonic, etc.) will support
large car makers
- Car manufacturers know how to make cars by the millions
- Ford made a million F-150 trucks last year
- That's just one maker and one model
- They have the factories, people, process and product know-how
- Electric cars far easier to build than IC cars
- Tesla might be reduced to the Ferrari/McLaren of the industry
- Nobody talks about/quantifies dirty battery manufacturing
- Nobody talks about/quantifies dirty battery disposal
- Nobody talks about/quantifies dirty electricity generation
- It's like leather: Process is dirty and disgusting
but the end product looks beautiful and clean and
nobody thinks about how it got there
- Where is reality of environmental impact of 100 million pure
electric cars when considering the entire chain of events
that leads to manufacturing, using and retiring one?
- I don't know the answer
- Point: Don't be too sure you are "clean"
- Maybe you are...by a little bit
The inflection point for this industry is 100% connected to better battery technology. No other technology matters one bit. We know how to make cars, electric motors, transmissions and electronics. We need better and cheaper batteries.
The minute a new battery technology (super-capacitors?) emerges with twice the energy in half the volume at half the cost we will have dozens of pure electrics to choose from. The infrastructure will be built as soon as companies can start making money with them.
Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars
#165This is very troubling to read. I can understand that tampering with an automobile might pose safety concerns. I can also understand that Tesla is trying to protect its brand. That being said, the fact that Tesla is monitoring individual cars in a way that they can detect when you're used the Ethernet port is seriously Orwellian. I can only imagine this will get worse as cars become more autonomous.
I think what will happen is that as more cars leave warranty Tesla will be increasingly pressured to provide a "jailbreak" option for people who want to keep driving and servicing their Tesla. If they don't capitulate then regulators will eventually force the issue. They can get away with this now because their cars are all high-end and still under warranty, but it will change with the Model 3. Tesla probably knows this, but they'll hold on for as long as they can because there are many advantages to having total control of the life cycle. Things might get ugly at some point, though.
Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars
#166> A lot of Tesla fans claim that electric vehicles are inherently superior, because with fewer moving parts, they'll be able to stay on the road basically forever - no piston rings to wear, no transmissions to fail, no oil to change. There are at least two major components that "wear out" in power electronics - capacitors and power transistors. Traditional vacuum-impregnated motor winding insulation also has a wear-o…
I found your addition very interesting. But I think the "Tesla fans" referred to, are referring to something different.
The Tesla vehicles are "missing" a lot of parts that rust, corrode, and cause engineering challenges. One of the main ones behind the exhaust system. Speak with a series of car mechanics and they'll invariably tell stories of cars that never received an oil change until something fails. There are videos, pictures, and documentation of Tesla being able to swap drive trains, etc.
Put together, Tesla is able to better protect the frame and body from corrosion by separating it from the same parts that usually "Carry this along". That's a lot of text to say they reduce the surface area and mass of corrosion and failure prone parts.
This isn't to say I agree, but I find the information all fascinating (as a car guy). The best way to make a car, in my mind; more serviceable is to increase the protections from rust and corrosion. Otherwise a simple brake pad ends up being an entire brake system upon repair attempt. In regards to electronics; they can go in sealed compartments and be easily serviced. How awesome. They can also just as easily be replaced by a superior implementation.
Anyways, your post made me ramble a bit but I'm trying to determine if I agree with the original post or not.
Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars
#167None of this seems "throwaway" to me. It just means that rather than build a product that ends up being repaired by a distributed army of mechanics, they are going "full stack" and aiming to repair everything in-house. To me that seems like the ideal system - some people like the author might enjoy repairing their own cars, but I would rather not.
Now imagine Apple got rid of independent repair shops (they are already heading in this direction pretty much). There would be outrage, and there's already unease with Apple's direction in these areas. Why does Tesla get a pass?
My phone and laptop have a much lower price and expected service life than a $100k vehicle.
Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars
#168Just think of it as customer engagement. It's like calling slavery "job assurance".
Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars
#169One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…
You'd think that out of the thousands of people who have already bought one of these cars, there might be one out there with both the skills and desire to actually own what they paid for On the other hand, it could just be that those who want to really own their cars would not consider buying a Tesla anyway, and those who have the skills are too scared of the legal aspects. I think at the moment, electric cars are st…
you know now i really wanna see a LS1 swapped tesla.
Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars
#170One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…
> Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles This seems to fly in the face of evidence, considering Tesla directly facilitates aftermarket sales: teslamotors.com/models/preowned
Two different things. In the context of the parent, aftermarket means parts available from non-OEMs. I can go to the local NAPA and get spark-plugs for my Jeep produced by multiple companies.