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Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

syonyk.blogspot.com

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Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#131

Post by ssmoot »

qume wrote: post #66
wlesieutre wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that this is true of any car in a car dealer lot. But it only matters as a comparison when a car is potentially at end-of-life, and whether it stays on the road or gets shoved in a junkyard and replaced with a new one is an open question. If somebody decides to replace their 2013 model, it's basically 100% odds of staying on the road, and that car being on the road maybe represents one less new car that could ha…

I would wager that 80% of cars that are crushed (which weren't in an accident) could be repaired (if broken) or 'fixed up' to operate better than the last owner thought possible for less than a days work and perhaps a few hundred dollars. I do appreciate your point, but I think people are far too afraid of older cars and they are scrapped too soon. I was hoping to convince some folk in this tech community that old ca…

I totally buy the environmental impact argument on keeping that Mercedes vs buying the Tesla.

That isn't the only concern though. In a high speed collision against a modern 5-Star vehicle the people in the Mercedes are pretty much toast.

I think it's possible you could upgrade the safety of an older vehicle in many ways, but realistically most owners never would beyond tires and modest braking improvements. And you'll probably not see "city stop" like systems or airbag cocoons become common aftermarket systems anytime soon.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#132

Post by zanny »

codedokode wrote: post #81
zanny wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to potentially break your car has never stopped any other car in history from having an accessible engine compartment. This is basically in tandem with the John Deere story - the consequences of proprietary software bleed into the physical world and cause an incredible amount of difficulty for people who do not even recognize what the problem is. Tesla can only get away with all this because of how digita…

Also the ability to replace software would allow criminals to bypass anti-theft mechanisms.

You can easily use the same mechanisms to secure personal computers to secure cars. Have a signing key for firmware uploads that the owner (or if they do not want the signing key, the dealer/manufacturer) controls.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#133

Post by xeromal »

leesalminen wrote: post #41
carlivar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your window regulator will fail again within a year or two. (Learned this from experience installing Chinese-made replacement parts in my 90's VW)

My E46 3 series (BMW) would chew through these as well. OEM or knockoff.

omg dude. My E46 chews through turn signal bulbs, Final stage relays, lock actuators, and oil. I love the car but jeez.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#134

Post by dkhenry »

This article is spot on, but the author fails to account for the fact that on _most_ new cars, your in the same boat. Unless its a maintenance item, your not going to be able to replace it with anything but the manufacture's blessing. The biggest difference is there are a lot more maintenance parts on a conventional car, so you have more of an opportunity to replace things. It was my understanding that the only true maintenance part on the Tesla was the wiper blades.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#135

Post by zanny »

ericd wrote: post #110
zanny wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to potentially break your car has never stopped any other car in history from having an accessible engine compartment. This is basically in tandem with the John Deere story - the consequences of proprietary software bleed into the physical world and cause an incredible amount of difficulty for people who do not even recognize what the problem is. Tesla can only get away with all this because of how digita…

Tinkering with an electric car when you don't know what you're doing will kill you so much more easily than a gasoline car will. That probably has something to do with it?

"Sticks a potato in exhaust pipe"

"Drives around car"

"Dies"

Alternatively, disconnect the steering column and drive off a cliff.

There are a thousand easy ways to kill yourself making uninformed modifications to any motor vehicle, by its nature. Its a ton of steel that goes up to a tenth the speed of sound. If anything, the reduced complexity of electric vehicles gives you fewer vectors for wrongdoing to screw yourself over. You can break any number of parts in a combustion engine to make it fail, whereas in an electric vehicle all you really have is steering column + drivetrain + battery pack.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#136

Post by marssaxman »

qume wrote: post #66
wlesieutre wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that this is true of any car in a car dealer lot. But it only matters as a comparison when a car is potentially at end-of-life, and whether it stays on the road or gets shoved in a junkyard and replaced with a new one is an open question. If somebody decides to replace their 2013 model, it's basically 100% odds of staying on the road, and that car being on the road maybe represents one less new car that could ha…

I would wager that 80% of cars that are crushed (which weren't in an accident) could be repaired (if broken) or 'fixed up' to operate better than the last owner thought possible for less than a days work and perhaps a few hundred dollars. I do appreciate your point, but I think people are far too afraid of older cars and they are scrapped too soon. I was hoping to convince some folk in this tech community that old ca…

I feel the same way. I drive a classic Range Rover, and it is a lot of fun. Yes, I spend around $2000 each year getting various components repaired or replaced, but that is enough to keep ahead of entropy, and between loan payments and the higher cost of insurance I'd be spending twice that or more on a newer vehicle. Plus, I have a relatively simple machine with no fancy DRM automation crap that won't report me to the FBI for crimethink.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#137

Post by wdr1 »

ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

> Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles

This seems to fly in the face of evidence, considering Tesla directly facilitates aftermarket sales:

teslamotors.com/models/preowned

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#138

Post by sschueller »

chrisbennet wrote: post #91
atomical wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's possible to buy an ECU from a parts dealer. You wouldn't have to necessary go directly through the manufacturer. You might also be able to get one from a junkyard.

It's not uncommon for modern ECU's to need to be "coded" to work with the car.

Yes but there are also 3rd party tools available to code ECUs, keys etc. Like the VAG-COM for VW and Audi cars. I don't need to ask vw's permission to add a new key to my car.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#139

Post by jacquesm »

brandmeyer wrote: post #29

> A lot of Tesla fans claim that electric vehicles are inherently superior, because with fewer moving parts, they'll be able to stay on the road basically forever - no piston rings to wear, no transmissions to fail, no oil to change. There are at least two major components that "wear out" in power electronics - capacitors and power transistors. Traditional vacuum-impregnated motor winding insulation also has a wear-o…

Those voids also allow the wiring of the windings to flex slightly under the changing magnetic flux leading to eventual insulation failure.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#140

Post by Dylan16807 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #124
mikeash wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expensive is different from "can't," and there's definitely one company whose mechanics can replace the battery.

It's all about ROI. You can make a case for almost any conventional repair, save a transmission or engine overhaul. When a battery replacement exceeds the value of the vehicle, and the one source of mechanics is incentivized to sell a new car, the economics will never make sense.

A battery might exceed the current value of the car, but once you add a $X battery, the vehicle goes up $X in value. The economics are fine there.
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