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Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

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Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#211

Post by jernfrost »

bunkydoo wrote: post #186

I think if drugs themselves were legalized, non-violent drug offenders pardoned, and then former drug trafficking cartels treated legally as terrorist organizations - we would get somewhere. I really have no problem tight packing prisons if it's full of violent thugs. The only problem is how this could potentially affect the second amendment - because the war on drugs would no longer be on unarmed drug users, it woul…

Treating terrorist organizations like terrorist organizations hasn't really helped either. The war on terror, is just as failed as the war on drugs. Basically the hard nosed simple approaches never work. You got to look and underlying causes and deal with those. But that is too intricate so people don't want to listen to such solutions.

Problem with tight packing is that lots of the criminals wont be violent but will become in these prisons, and those who are violent will become even more so. Unless you plan building prisons only for life sentences these people will come out of prison more violent and messed up than ever. That hardly a receipt for a more peaceful society.

As long as people are going to get out at some point, you can't ignore what happens to them while they are incarcerated.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#212

Post by mmmBacon »

gbog wrote: post #115
jfmfhhdkdkd wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Japan and Hong Kong and many others still have far lower drug use and crime rates despite their very tough laws on drug use, when compared to Portugal.

China, too, have a far lower drug use rate. Not sure for Japan and Hk, but for China I think there are two main reasons. One, she was "locked in turmoil" during the 70s and the 80s, so did not get the influence from this period. Two, most young people are busy making their life, and have actually good hope to have a much better life than their parents (which is not that difficult).

With over 1B people you can bet China has drug problems too. You just don't hear about it because there's no free press there.

See: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/world/despite-a-crackdo...

China and HK have long histories of drug use and opium was widely used there prior to 1949. The Opium Wars were fought in China.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#213

Post by melling »

bdavisx wrote: post #112
melling wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politicians do whatever gets them, and keeps them, elected. If they poll and find 70% of their electorate are in favor of something, guess how they're going to vote? I really don't understand why people put themselves in echo chambers then complain to each other why the world is the way it is. It's a waste of time.

Actually, that's not true. In Florida a year or two ago, ~58% voted to legalize medical marijuana, but the vote needed 60% because it was a ballot initiative. How come the Florida reps didn't go ahead and do it themselves since obviously a majority of their electorate voted that way? It's about a lot more than the electorate.

How is what I said not true? The bar is said to 60%. I said 70% so it's actually easier than I thought.

You came up with a number that was close but not enough and you think that proves a point? Get the additional 20 out of every 1000 votes. The reason it's not 50% is because people don't want flip/flopping every few years.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#214

Post by talles »

humbleMouse wrote: post #198
talles wrote: post #190

> By contrast, there has been a near tripling of American deaths from heroin overdoses between 2010 and 2013, even though the law and its severe punishments remain unchanged. But why heroin usage has raised? I have read an (very convincing) argument that heroin usage is increasing due to the marijuana legalization. And no, it's not the typical "marijuana is a door the heavier drugs" thing, is merely supply and demand…

"Street dealers don't really sell weed as they used to now that better and legal weed exist, so they went on heroin." This is an extremely misguided statement. The demand for high quality weed has never been higher. It doesn't matter if you legalize it, because you are still taxing it 50%. The individual sellers and producers will keep doing their thing. I can tell you right now that people who sell weed don't just m…

> The demand for high quality weed has never been higher.

That's my point too. And I believe that this increase in demand for high quality weed made many street dealers that sell shitty weed go for heroin. Now heroin is a cheap and common option at your local street corner.

> (...) those types of dealers have been selling every kind of drug they can get their hands on and will never stop.

Exactly. As you put it, they will never stop. It's time to realize that and include them on the equation. Why there aren't policies coercing the typical street dealer to sell safer drugs rather than weird dangerous experimental stuff (like on LSD vs Nbomb)?

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#215

Post by sevensor »

atemerev wrote: post #200
Kenji wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drug use being legal is an intermediary step, but pointless if possession and trade of drugs is illegal. Since you aways have to obtain and possess drugs in order to comsume them, drugs are still illegal. I don't even know based on what law this organization can administer clean drugs. But yes, Switzerland is doing a better job at fighting drug crime than a lot of other countries.

This is handled quite elegantly here. Possession of drugs remains illegal indeed (we are not talking about marijuana here — this is about "hard" drugs). But you can come to one of Quai9 centres and there are drugs available directly from the government (I am not sure whether for free or for nominal price — perhaps the latter), all of Swiss pharmaceutical quality. Heroin is definitely available (the personnel will try…

Fascinating! The Swiss government implemented Chris Rock's suggestion for bullet control. I see a fair number of U.S. second amendment supporters citing Switzerland as an example of a safe society with high levels of weapons ownership, but I've never heard them mention this.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#216

Post by cichli »

rayiner wrote: post #210
soneca wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The history said, in this case, that money and power did not win the dispute, not that their influence does not exist or should be considered negligible. So, if in the case of drugs, society moral standards, money and power are all at the same side; what's the chance of grassroot movement changing the laws? That question was not rethorical, but giving my own answer, I think the path is changing the perceptio…

You're ignoring a morally significant dimension to the problem. Nobody becomes a drug addict by accident. They choose to do drugs and take the risk not just of bodily harm, but of becoming unable to support their families and becoming a burden on society. And your suggestion is that society should spend money to treat them of an illness that was their fault to begin with. I happen to agree with you that treatment, no…

"Nobody becomes a drug addict by accident."

If I choose to take drugs without the intention of becoming addicted, and I become addicted, then yes, I became addicted by accident. Even if I was aware of the risks of becoming addicted.

Much like how if I decide to drive my car without the intention of hitting anyone, then if I hit someone, it is deemed an accident. Even if I was aware of the risks of hitting someone with my car.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#217

Post by DanBC »

humbleMouse wrote: post #198
talles wrote: post #190

> By contrast, there has been a near tripling of American deaths from heroin overdoses between 2010 and 2013, even though the law and its severe punishments remain unchanged. But why heroin usage has raised? I have read an (very convincing) argument that heroin usage is increasing due to the marijuana legalization. And no, it's not the typical "marijuana is a door the heavier drugs" thing, is merely supply and demand…

"Street dealers don't really sell weed as they used to now that better and legal weed exist, so they went on heroin." This is an extremely misguided statement. The demand for high quality weed has never been higher. It doesn't matter if you legalize it, because you are still taxing it 50%. The individual sellers and producers will keep doing their thing. I can tell you right now that people who sell weed don't just m…

> The demand for high quality weed has never been higher.

A minor point, but cannabis use has gone down.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#218

Post by jernfrost »

ghshephard wrote: post #14
smegel wrote: post #2

It really is a difficult problem. Sweden legalized heroin in the 60s and it was a disaster. On the other hand, enforcement only has a moderate impact, but comes at a huge financial and social cost. And while I don't support it, the only country with a measure of success seems to be Singapore, where you just hang anyone who has more than single dose in their possession. Maybe the grim reality is hanging a few hundred…

Singapore is somewhat unique in that it's a country with very restricted freedoms, which have been given up in exchange for security/safety. It's extraordinarily rule-bound, and, in many ways, is the antithesis of the United States, in which freedoms reign. In such a structured, government controlled and monitored society, all sorts of rules can be laid down, and enforced through strict punishment. I wouldn't try and…

> is the antithesis of the United States, in which freedoms reign

Perhaps compared to Singapore, but my main reason for leaving the US after just 1 year, was the police state feeling that country gave me.

So many draconian rules and heavy fines and penalties. So many aggressive cops who will go after people for the smallest things: under age drinking, jaywalking etc.

American border controls are like an imaginary communist police state. Ironically old east block countries aren't like this presently.

In America there are just rules for everything. I went to an American university and compared to a European one they are total control freaks: no drinking on campus. Boys and girls can't mix. I mean they even got people patrolling the dorms to make sure rules are upheld. It is like some nazi kindergarten for adults.

I left for University in the Netherlands. Instead I got a bar on campus right outside my flat. We lived boys and girls together and nobody was walking around monitoring us.

I even heard from American high schoolers coming on exchange that public display of affection is not allowed. I had never even heard such an expression before. So kissing, hugging etc apparently isn't allowed in American high schools.

Although that sounds so crazy I am willing to believe that is a gross exaggeration.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#219

Post by jernfrost »

adrianm wrote: post #166
jernfrost wrote: post #159

One thing I am surprised by is that it is almost never mentioned how China became drug free after Britain made China into the biggest dope user through the Opium wars. They virtually got rid of opium usage in a relatively short time, and they did it without any sort of war on drugs approach. They certainly fought the drug usage but they did not imprison or blame drug users. Rather than told abusers they were victims…

China is virtually drug free? In that case, Wikipedia could use your help cleaning up this and many related articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drug_trade_in_China Don't forget to cite your sources! They're sticklers about that sort of thing.

> how China became drug free after Britain made China into the biggest dope user through the Opium wars.

I referring to the period following the opium ban. I believe this was the 50s, not the present day. We are also comparing to an insanely high level were the claims was that 90% of inhabitants of certain provinces were users.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#220

Post by gohrt »

nitpick but important: it's time to decriminalize, not legalize.

The distinction is that we need to maintain a government force to compel the non-use of drugs that cause public harm. We need to make drug-use punishable, on the level of littering, trespass, vandalism, and disturbing the peace.

We need to be able to confine people who lose control of themselves and cause public harm when they are high, or in service of their high, but that confinement should be treatment oriented, not punishment oriented.

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