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Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#141

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

whitegrape wrote: post #122
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> So only physical characteristics are heritable? See my point above - physical characteristics are directly observable, and therefore, measurable. Mental, emotional etc psychological characteristics are not directly observable, so are only measurable through a proxy. In the case of intelligence, the proxy is an IQ test and we don't even have a good definition of what it is we're proxying, so it might not even be a…

The study of IQ (and the underlying g ) is one of two or three (definitely less than 6) crown jewels of psychology. You should probably read the actual science, "we" know quite a bit about intelligence. (I can help get you started if you're really interested, but I suspect you aren't.)

Thank you, I am indeed interested and I do read the actual science as you suggest. I study artificial intelligence so I'm in a position to know that there is no universally accepted definition of intelligence, certainly not a formal one that would allow us to encode it in a program and so reproduce intelligence in a machine.

There is very little disagreement on that in the field of AI. In fact, there is so much agreement that we have no idea what intelligence is, that we've totally given up on trying to understand it and instead switched to hoping that intelligence will naturally arise if we create complex enough systems (complex enough that we also don't understand them very well).

All that said, you're welcome to point me to the studies that are relevant to your field and I will gladly go through them, although I can't guarantee that I have the time to do so on time to continue this debate in this thread.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#142

Post by coldtea »

michaelbuddy wrote: post #111
coldtea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, the kind of systemic that kept them legally segregated until the sixties -- that is, their parents time, and de facto segregated until today. Or the kind of systemic that ensures their school districts are poorer and underfunded. Or the kind of systemic that ensures you take the middle of the road when a black guy in a hoodie walks towards you in the same sidewalk.

You're actually saying there's something "systemic" that causes ME to behave a certain way when in the presense of a black guy in a hoodie? OKAY. Methinks you don't have a grasp of the word "systemic" Like I said before, you're throwing out ghosts that you can't fight against specifically, to reinforce a claim of what causes entire ethnicities to have interest and aptitude in coding and IT work.

>You're actually saying there's something "systemic" that causes ME to behave a certain way when in the presense of a black guy in a hoodie? OKAY.

It was the general "use" I used (e.g. the phrase could be read "that ensure one takes the middle of the road"). So, even if not you, then hell of a lot of people. Did you think that people who act in that "certain way" are unique snowflakes, and that their behavior is a personal curiosity that doesn't have historical roots and cultural influences?

>Like I said before, you're throwing out ghosts that you can't fight against specifically, to reinforce a claim of what causes entire ethnicities to have interest and aptitude in coding and IT work.

Well, I like some Lynard Skynard myself, but I wouldn't take it that far...

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#143

Post by coldtea »

michaelbuddy wrote: post #100
coldtea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, the kind of systemic that kept them legally segregated until the sixties -- that is, their parents time, and de facto segregated until today. Or the kind of systemic that ensures their school districts are poorer and underfunded. Or the kind of systemic that ensures you take the middle of the road when a black guy in a hoodie walks towards you in the same sidewalk.

So you're blaming the 60s, 70s and 80s for kids who grew up in the 2000s and don't code now? Because I don't know a single person who is in the field of IT whose parents were in IT. Positions barely existed until the 90s. No one has yet explained why even segregation today in some part of the country is affecting ethnic groups NOT interested or apt in coding to the level of getting the jobs.

>So you're blaming the 60s, 70s and 80s for kids who grew up in the 2000s and don't code now?

Those kids didn't develop in vitro in some abstract new environment.

They had parents, grandparents, neighborhoods, school districts, schools, family fortune (or lack thereof) potential employers (themselves born in the 60' 60's and 80s) etc.

Anybody who thinks those things don't affect the nurture, career and prospects of a young person, or that those things change in a few decades, are deluded.

Usually the same people also fail to understand the notion of statistics, and think that outliers that beat the odds and rose to become successful entrepreneurs or whatever from such upbringings translate to "it's equally easy for whites and blacks to become successful, here, this kid proved it, but most blacks are just lazy".

In other words people who don't understand that most white people play life in easy mode, where most blacks do not -- and point to some "hard mode" winners as if that means everything is equally easy for everybody.

http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#144

Post by coldtea »

michaelbuddy wrote: post #107
coldtea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, the kind of systemic that kept them legally segregated until the sixties -- that is, their parents time, and de facto segregated until today. Or the kind of systemic that ensures their school districts are poorer and underfunded. Or the kind of systemic that ensures you take the middle of the road when a black guy in a hoodie walks towards you in the same sidewalk.

Sure thing, so do me a favor, point to one of these under funded minority students - because from what I read, the dept of education figures point to more money per pupil spending on black and hispanice students vs white across the united states regionally and in total - http://www.heritage.org/~/media/images/reports/2011/04/bg254... Now if you can refute the source, I think that's great because I have a hard time be…

>Now if you can refute the source

The source is meaningless. Visit some schools in typical white districts and in typical black districts and compare them.

It's easy to have to spend more public money for poor districts since there's much more infrastructure work to be done, plus the students parents don't have enough to spend on their kids education in the first place.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#145

Post by kelukelugames »

aikah wrote: post #139
kelukelugames wrote: post #127

"Reverse racism" is not a real thing. I swear people invent ways to feel persecuted

> "Reverse racism" is not a real thing. I swear people invent ways to feel persecuted Reverse racism is certainly a real thing. Bigotry against white people is certainly a real thing. Go spend 5 minutes on salon.com, come back and tell me with a straight face that these people don't flirt with racism against white people. As a black person, this kind of ideology isn't helping me. It's only helping pundits selling out…

Racism against whites exists, but labelling it reverse racism is asinine. Are white people such special snowflakes that discrimination against them needs an unique name? It's as dumb as the term reverse sexism.

Claiming Salon advocates for racism against whites promotes outrage. People are too sensitive.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#146

Post by [deleted] »

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #133
homogeneous wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are making the case that intraracial facial structures all resemble each other No, my point is precisely the opposite. I'm making the case that facial structures are a crude approximation for genetic classification because it's not true that all "black" people have a dark skin complexion, not all "black" people have thick kinky hair, there is genetic diversity within the "black" community because the definition…

With all due respect, for the purpose of what we are arguing here, this pisses me off. Why do I even waste my time trying to make an argument when you spew this.

[deleted]

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#147

Post by dang »

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #133
homogeneous wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are making the case that intraracial facial structures all resemble each other No, my point is precisely the opposite. I'm making the case that facial structures are a crude approximation for genetic classification because it's not true that all "black" people have a dark skin complexion, not all "black" people have thick kinky hair, there is genetic diversity within the "black" community because the definition…

With all due respect, for the purpose of what we are arguing here, this pisses me off. Why do I even waste my time trying to make an argument when you spew this.

We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines.

This kind of trainwreck flamewar is the worst thing on this site.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#149

Post by kelukelugames »

dang wrote: post #148
kelukelugames wrote: post #127

"Reverse racism" is not a real thing. I swear people invent ways to feel persecuted

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11184780 and marked it off-topic.

Is there a different way I could voice disagreement with the use of the phrase reverse racism?

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#150

Post by dang »

kelukelugames wrote: post #149
dang wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11184780 and marked it off-topic.

Is there a different way I could voice disagreement with the use of the phrase reverse racism?

Comments about pet peeve phrases tend to be low quality and off topic, but if you had offered an insight instead of a snarky dismissal, that would have been better. Also, ideological buzz-language like "are white people such special snowflakes" never does any good, regardless of what position you favor.
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