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Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#121

Post by whitegrape »

wandering2 wrote: post #68
bobosha wrote: post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

This I really don't understand. All it takes is a simple Google search about "what can I expect in a software interview?" and you'll see right away the importance of whiteboard interviews for so many companies, especially when you are coming out of college. I don't how true the quote actually is, but for anyone, regardless of race, I feel like this is just basic due diligence if you want a job. I've barely been to an…

Your experience seems very weird to me. But I don't have enough data to know if it's atypical. I graduated not too long ago, but my school had many industry veterans as teachers, not pure academics, and sometimes they'd tell stories, one of which included formally proving to an interviewer during a whiteboard interview that the interviewer's expected answer was wrong. Besides that, the school (like I thought many colleges these days) put an emphasis on helping students get hired post-graduation. Additionally students themselves would practice whiteboarding each other, and I occasionally brought it up with friends in rants about how stupid the whiteboard hazing culture is.

Bad students or bad schools, it's really surprising either way they can be that bad.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#122

Post by whitegrape »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #106
is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

>> So only physical characteristics are heritable? See my point above - physical characteristics are directly observable, and therefore, measurable. Mental, emotional etc psychological characteristics are not directly observable, so are only measurable through a proxy. In the case of intelligence, the proxy is an IQ test and we don't even have a good definition of what it is we're proxying, so it might not even be a…

The study of IQ (and the underlying g) is one of two or three (definitely less than 6) crown jewels of psychology. You should probably read the actual science, "we" know quite a bit about intelligence. (I can help get you started if you're really interested, but I suspect you aren't.)

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#123

Post by p4wnc6 »

1024core wrote: post #92
p4wnc6 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better response might be to say, depending on how strongly you evaluate the evidence, "Gee, my personal opinion about this might need to be revised or given less weight in light of broader trends and evidence." For example, bias against black-sounding names is a real thing. It doesn't really matter if you personally have seen it, or if you think you haven't seen it. It's still real and quantifiable. Most of…

> believe the data and not your gut. Without considering where the data came from, under what assumptions was it collected, when was it collected, etc. how can you blindly lay faith in some "data"? I have some data which says N horses died on the streets of San Francisco last year; will you believe it? It just so happens that "last year" was 1895. Doesn't that make the "data" useless? Show me any other major industri…

I said conditional upon the data passing statistical grokking, then believe the data and not your gut. I should have made this conditionality more clear.

I didn't say blindly believe the data or blindly believe your gut.

But many people use their anecdotal experiences as justification to deny clearly significant trends because they personally "never observed it."

> Show me any other major industrial sector where a 17-year-old can start a company and be bought out for $30MM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_D'Aloisio#Summly Show me where highschool dropouts can make more than Harvard MBAs.

In a lot of ways these are not good things about our field. They represent a lot of the ways that toxic culture and a flight from quality are pervasive in tech. In tech, it's rarely about actually adding value and often much more about extracting rents from marketing and status. Just like it is in tons of other fields.

Tech is not like this because tech is more meritocratic. Tech is absolutely not meritocratic.

> but skin color is hardly ever an issue.

What are you basing this on? As far as I can tell, only your vague assessment of your personal observations. OK. That's not nothing. But because a lot of people present compelling arguments that it is an issue, I'm generally not just going to take some anecdotal reasoning. There are other explanations. Maybe you've been around racial bias and just not noticed it. Or maybe you've been extremely lucky to avoid being near it. Either of those are more plausible that the unlikely case that your anecdotal experience just happens to be more representative than all of the principled studies (which yes, always have flaws, but no that's not a good reason to believe their basic premise is entirely wrong).

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#124

Post by whitegrape »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #114
norea-armozel wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1930s the majority of basketball players were Jews. So, race has little to do with sports performance at least in basketball.

Not to mention, African Americans play a lot of basketball because Americans in general play (or view) a lot of basketball. In Europe, say, Africans play a lot of football. But there's also just as many whites who do- so are African Americans only endowed with the kind of genetics that help them play good basketball? Or are Africans in general endowed with good _basketball_ genetics, but not good _football_ genetics?…

Surprise, there are actually more diverse sets of black people than "African", each with their own biological diversity. African-Americans (that is, blacks in America who can trace their ancestors to the southern slaves) overwhelming come from a specific part of Africa, and those Africans are quite different from Africans elsewhere on the continent. You even have race wars among different ethnic groups of Africans! (See Rwanda for a particularly gruesome example.) So some African subgroups are actually better at different athletic traits -- not all can jump like African-Americans, but then again not all can sprint like another group, or run for very long distances like yet another group -- just as not all White people are actually as intelligent on average as the British. Human biological diversity is pretty rich and varied, it's just unfortunate that the thing that matters most in modern society (intelligence) correlates as well as it does with such general and otherwise not very telling traits like skin color.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#125

Post by whitegrape »

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #45
is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

HBD has been generally disregarded as bunk science. I have yet to see anything otherwise that isn't on some vaguely conspiratorial and mostly self-referential blog somewhere.

There are peer reviewed papers you know, with replication and everything. It's regarded as bunk science by the exact same kinds of people who say climate change science is bunk science: people who don't read the science papers.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#126

Post by omonra »

Don't care.

Various groups had faced real discrimination in the job market - jews, italians, irish, etc. Here's one piece of historical trivia - Warren Buffett could not get his first Wall Street job because the company he really wanted to work for had a policy of only hiring Jews - because all other Wall Street banks would not.

Ie industries had real 'no X allowed' policies in place - not this 'Oh, I don't feel like being the only black guy in the room'. Well too bad for you - the job will pay money to someone else who doesn't necessarily have to be around people like them.

Today whites, Asians and Indians are supposed to feel bad because other ethnicities don't make sufficient effort to join the industry? I'm sorry, I don't.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#128

Post by tptacek »

tzs wrote: post #105
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HBD has been generally disregarded as bunk science. I have yet to see anything otherwise that isn't on some vaguely conspiratorial and mostly self-referential blog somewhere.

What is HBD?

"Human biodiversity".

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#129

Post by kelukelugames »

kamau wrote: post #78
bobosha wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you should know better than computing black:white ratios. How's that an issue? I too am a racial minority in my team and my color has never has been an issue. It becomes an issue if you consciously make it one (as you did ITT)

Good for you. I mean that sincerely. I've personally had my color be an issue at 2 different jobs. I left those jobs. The reason that I mention ratios is that I think that people (all people) behave better in more diverse environments. And that sometimes when ratios are skewed one way or another, those in the majority can be a bit tone deaf to others. Just an observation of human nature. If you think race is too hot…

"I too am a racial minority on my team" could mean white guy with a bunch of Asians. I'm sorry but that's not nearly the same thing as other scenarios in the US.

And plenty people of color put on race blinders or never encounter any issues, but that doesn't mean hostile environments do not exist. In my personal experience, it varies wildly from city to city and company to company. I've worked at companies that celebrate black history month and companies where white managers think it's fun to touch black women's hair.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#130

Post by tptacek »

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

In case it's worth it to you, either when you return with your new account after this one is inevitably blowtorched off the site, or on next week's spelling test, the word you're looking for is "tenet" (a principle or belief), not "tenant" (a rental resident).

Everyone else reading this can find the flag button quickly by clicking on the timestamp next to the name on the comment.

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