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Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#111

Post by michaelbuddy »

coldtea wrote: post #49
michaelbuddy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what systemic problem though? I'm hearing systemic a lot and it's more often looking suspiciously like a way to create a ghost that can't be fought so let's throw more money at any and every program to make a show of it.

You know, the kind of systemic that kept them legally segregated until the sixties -- that is, their parents time, and de facto segregated until today. Or the kind of systemic that ensures their school districts are poorer and underfunded. Or the kind of systemic that ensures you take the middle of the road when a black guy in a hoodie walks towards you in the same sidewalk.

You're actually saying there's something "systemic" that causes ME to behave a certain way when in the presense of a black guy in a hoodie? OKAY. Methinks you don't have a grasp of the word "systemic" Like I said before, you're throwing out ghosts that you can't fight against specifically, to reinforce a claim of what causes entire ethnicities to have interest and aptitude in coding and IT work.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#112

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

redthrowaway wrote: post #97
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> why do companies bear the moral responsibility for fixing social ills? Er, because they're part of society? And because in the case of giants of the corporate world, like Apple, Facebook and Microsoft, they actually do have the wherewithal to influence that society to a degree that even governments often don't?

They also have the wherewithal to solve homelessness. Is that also their responsibility? Corporations are, like Westphalian nation-states, explicitly amoral entities. The extent to which they behave morally is due to market and/or political pressure, not any inherent moral judgement. Apple makes consumer devices. That's their business. They have a responsibility to make the greatest possible profit selling those devi…

>> If you want companies to behave in an ethical fashion, you need to align legal, social, market, tax, and other incentives in order to push them in that direction. Expecting them to do so out of the goodness of their hearts is quixotic: they have no hearts with which to be good.

You mean, if I want the big companies to do good (or "not do evil") I have to pay up to them?

But the people who make up those big companies also have to live in the same society as everyone else. So they should already have an incentive to do good to those societies- they will personally benefit from that good-doing. Why do they need me, or anyone else, to provide that incentive?

We all live in the same world, we all have a responsibility to be morally considerate in it. "Companies" are not "amoral entities", neither are nations. Because they are groups of lots of people, who all are subject to moral judgement.

"I was just following orders" is not an excuse anymore, and neither should "I was just doing my job" be.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#113

Post by whitegrape »

abrahamepton wrote: post #28
jimmywanger wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Occam's razor. Is there a problem in our entire society and schooling system, or are Black and Hispanic backgrounds a liability because of the views and attitudes they have/teach?

Having lived in our society and been educated by our schools: Yeah, there are societal problems and educational problems. Big, big, big problems. Having gotten my ass kicked intellectually repeatedly by black and hispanic students: no, those backgrounds are not a liability.

An average IQ one std dev below other groups does not preclude the existence of individuals who have an IQ two std devs above an average member of the other group. https://antidem.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/glantons-law/

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#114

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

norea-armozel wrote: post #86
eip wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blacks make up 13% of the population in the US but 75% of NBA players and 67% of NFL players. Do you think white peoples under representation in US pro sports is more due to genetics or environmental influence? Having worked in Sillycon Valley for a long time I think it's funny/sad how the whole scene pretends to be PC about race and diversity issues when pretty much all the tech employees there are white or Indian m…

In the 1930s the majority of basketball players were Jews. So, race has little to do with sports performance at least in basketball.

Not to mention, African Americans play a lot of basketball because Americans in general play (or view) a lot of basketball.

In Europe, say, Africans play a lot of football. But there's also just as many whites who do- so are African Americans only endowed with the kind of genetics that help them play good basketball? Or are Africans in general endowed with good _basketball_ genetics, but not good _football_ genetics?

And what about European basketball? Why are basketball teams in Europe not predominantly African American?

[Where "football" read "soccer" if you're on the other side of the pond, please]

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#115

Post by homogeneous »

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #93
homogeneous wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also telling that "genetically inherited IQ" always happens to appear in discussions about "race", as if our crude racial classifications represent semantically meaningful genetic variations as it relates to general intelligence. Whatever role genetics play in IQ are most certainly not manifested in the concentration of melanin in one's skin or the coarseness of one's hair or the color of one's eyes or the size…

"Whatever role genetics play in IQ are most certainly not manifested in the concentration of melanin in one's skin or the coarseness of one's hair or the color of one's eyes or the size of one's nose or any of the other crude heuristics we use to group people up as "races"." You are making the case that intraracial facial structures all resemble each other, but internally how people are connected (brain structure) do…

> You are making the case that intraracial facial structures all resemble each other

No, my point is precisely the opposite. I'm making the case that facial structures are a crude approximation for genetic classification because it's not true that all "black" people have a dark skin complexion, not all "black" people have thick kinky hair, there is genetic diversity within the "black" community because the definition of "black" is fluid and based on an amalgamation of regional, political, cultural and apparent (as in apparent to the naked eye) genetic factors.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#116

Post by redthrowaway »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #112
redthrowaway wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also have the wherewithal to solve homelessness. Is that also their responsibility? Corporations are, like Westphalian nation-states, explicitly amoral entities. The extent to which they behave morally is due to market and/or political pressure, not any inherent moral judgement. Apple makes consumer devices. That's their business. They have a responsibility to make the greatest possible profit selling those devi…

>> If you want companies to behave in an ethical fashion, you need to align legal, social, market, tax, and other incentives in order to push them in that direction. Expecting them to do so out of the goodness of their hearts is quixotic: they have no hearts with which to be good. You mean, if I want the big companies to do good (or "not do evil") I have to pay up to them? But the people who make up those big compani…

>You mean, if I want the big companies to do good (or "not do evil") I have to pay up to them?

It means you need to align incentives. Those can be positive (tax breaks for hiring veterans) or negative (penalties for violating antitrust laws), but they are incentives nonetheless.

>So they should already have an incentive to do good to those societies- they will personally benefit from that good-doing.

Do you, individually, benefit more from living in a society where mining companies don't dump toxic chemicals in rivers in third world countries, or from making your quarterly bonuses? This is a classic tragedy of the commons.

>Why do they need me, or anyone else, to provide that incentive?

Because companies are amoral profit-maximization constructs.

>"Companies" are not "amoral entities", neither are nations.

There are many corporations and politicians who are more than happy to indulge that fantasy in exchange for your money or vote.

You can rant and rave about evil corporations till you're blue in the face, and you won't change a damned thing. Corporations respond to incentives, not moral pleas. Change the incentives if you want to change the behaviour.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#117

Post by dragonwriter »

jimmywanger wrote: post #10
zenplatypus wrote: post #2

It is vaguely mentioned in the article but I think controlling for the type of schools that students are exiting from is an important factor in determining if there is a "pipeline" problem. For example it was mentioned that Black and Hispanic Tech graduates are more likely to end up in office support roles. Out of the top 20 engineering/computer science programs in the country I doubt almost any students are ending u…

Occam's razor. Is there a problem in our entire society and schooling system, or are Black and Hispanic backgrounds a liability because of the views and attitudes they have/teach?

> Is there a problem in our entire society and schooling system, or are Black and Hispanic backgrounds a liability because of the views and attitudes they have/teach?

The two are not mutually exclusive. I would argue that a very significant part of the problem that Blacks and Hispanics face (besides simple discrimination on the part of people in positions of power -- which is very real, as studies of responses to applications in various context from people with stereotypically Black or Hispanic names vs. otherwise identical applications without that feature) is attitudes toward societal institutions and mainstream culture in their respective subcultures that are a direct product of problems in the broader society (including the schooling system), both currently and over the past several centuries (the longer time especially for black subculture) including, over much of that time, overt de jure subjugation and exclusion (which while it didn't directly impact young people today, is recent enough that lots of them have living relatives who did directly experience it) followed by covert (but still present, see earlier comment about applications) discrimination and neglect.

Arguing over whether A or B is the problem is pointless when A causes B which then contributes back to A.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#118

Post by [deleted] »

mynameishere wrote: post #109
falsestprophet wrote: post #3

Is working as a computer programmer economically rational for high performing black and hispanic students in the United States? Black and hispanic students benefit from preferential admissions standards to medical, law, business and other graduate schools that can lead to higher salaries and higher social standing than computer programming. Consider the extreme case of black students and medical school: Black student…

Medicine is a bad example. But AA hiring is a (non-illusory) systematic occurrence, and it's perfectly rational for high IQ blacks (who will get snapped up by any large corp) to aim for high-status, high-visibility roles such as administration, rather than squinting at a laptop for decades. Of course, this is against the narrative, just as is pointing out that lots of people one generation away from medieval levels o…

[deleted]

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#119

Post by whitegrape »

Archio wrote: post #15

It pains me greatly that the tech industry lacks diversity from minorities like blacks, hispanics, and women. However, I strongly believe that looking at the tech companies and asking why they don't hire more minorities is totally missing the real problem. This is of course one datapoint, but the university I went to (top engineering school in the Northeast US) hosts a big panel for computer-field majors at the annua…

Why does it pain you greatly? Does it do the same for other professions like nursing?

My entryway into computers was "I want to build a website like this one, but better." This same opportunity exists for everyone with a web browser, which is most everyone. You had the additional fortune of parents seeking out opportunities for you, but it was not necessary, and I suspect you'd have found your way to tech eventually even with no external support.

Maybe it's painful because you want more diversity in your life? Why not fulfill that desire outside of work? Maybe it's painful to work on legacy stuff that you're sure with a more diverse mindset wouldn't be so crufty? I think we've come impressively far with the current (and in the past "worse") state of affairs, clearly we don't need the diversity to accomplish greatness. I'm on a team with Indians, Koreans, Chinese...and two other white guys. Our manager is black. Our manager's manager is a woman. I don't think this diversity gives us any technical advantage, but since we're all competent, there's not really any disadvantage, this is just how the dice fell for us. The only way this diversity impacts me is that my name gets mispronounced (and vice versa for some of them). But as you mention there are a lot of diversity advocates who want diversity over merit for some mysterious reason and will actively sabotage teams to get it.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#120

Post by [deleted] »

mynameishere wrote: post #109
falsestprophet wrote: post #3

Is working as a computer programmer economically rational for high performing black and hispanic students in the United States? Black and hispanic students benefit from preferential admissions standards to medical, law, business and other graduate schools that can lead to higher salaries and higher social standing than computer programming. Consider the extreme case of black students and medical school: Black student…

Medicine is a bad example. But AA hiring is a (non-illusory) systematic occurrence, and it's perfectly rational for high IQ blacks (who will get snapped up by any large corp) to aim for high-status, high-visibility roles such as administration, rather than squinting at a laptop for decades. Of course, this is against the narrative, just as is pointing out that lots of people one generation away from medieval levels o…

[deleted]
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