Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#41

Post by duaneb » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 9:40 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #17

bobosha wrote: post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

> How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? A lot of schools don't teach anything about interviewing. Its not academic. In fact, a lot of the training videos used in schools that do teach "job skills" to prepare students make no mention of white board interviews. They talk about being polite, wearing a suit, grooming, etc. Judging an academic program on if they have ever…

> They talk about being polite, wearing a suit, grooming, etc.

Yikes, that's even worse. Some cultures will actively hold a suit against a candidate. I can't say I agree with that, but it's a little scary that they're giving stock advice to a highly dynamic field, very little of which is relevant. (Polite is good, being relaxed is better. Being suited is good, being comfortable is better.)

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#42

Post by is_it_worth_it_ » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 9:40 PM UTC

VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #30

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

You're being downvoted because you're being a racist buffoon. Yes, there is genetic variation across traits, this is a fact. That said, we are all heavily influenced by our environments and to discount this incredibly formative factor of all human life is ridiculous. Culture, poverty, exposure to crime, and endless cycle of poor parenting, whatever it may be - there are a million things that can and DO get in the way…

Case in point right here. Somehow there is this big conspiracy where certain groups of people, unanimously across the world, across all of human time, do worse than other groups of people. The whole world is in on it, and we must fix it!

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#43

Post by bilbo0s » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #16

I think the article mixes non-tech hiring problems with tech problems. I think tech is one of the only fields where your skin color really does not matter. We hire people from far-flung countries who can barely communicate in english; we hire 17-year-olds who have not even finished highschool; we hire total misfits; etc., based solely on their technical expertise. So it bothers me to read crap like this: Research has…

> This may happen in other jobs, but in my 20 years in tech, I have never seen this.

I've been in Tech about 25 to 30 years. I'm sad to report that I have seen it happen a time or two in tech. But what I will say... is that before I went into "pure" tech, it happened in other fields in a much more overt manner.

I was a peon at DDB Needham in Chicago a long time ago and was talking to a friend of mine when one of the VP's came into her cube. The VP wanted her to go through the resumes and circular file all of the ones who were black. My friend asked how would she know if they were black... the woman said "Oh... you'll know. Look at the names."

As it happened some other friends of mine were talking about starting a company using this really cool thing called "WinSock" to do networking. So I went home that night and joined them. I'd had enough of the BigCo lifestyle. Two really good exits later ... here I am. So I really ought to thank that VP lady.

I ran into that attitude a couple of times in tech over the 25 or so years since then... but not NEARLY as often as when I was doing the BigCo thing. It does happen though. And I tended to run away from those people as fast and as far as I could.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#44

Post by bobosha » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #17

bobosha wrote: post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

> How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? A lot of schools don't teach anything about interviewing. Its not academic. In fact, a lot of the training videos used in schools that do teach "job skills" to prepare students make no mention of white board interviews. They talk about being polite, wearing a suit, grooming, etc. Judging an academic program on if they have ever…

A whiteboard is just a proxy for ability to think on one's feet and problem solve under pressure. It could just as well have been a workstation, a paper and pen....

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#45

Post by knowaveragejoe » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

HBD has been generally disregarded as bunk science. I have yet to see anything otherwise that isn't on some vaguely conspiratorial and mostly self-referential blog somewhere.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#46

Post by beat » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

bobosha wrote: post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

One of my best friends for the past 25 years is a very successful black man - a medical doctor, hospital administrator, and finance nerd. Back when he was in med school, he got arrested in a dormitory laundromat for stealing laundry. Cuffed and kept in jail overnight, because someone else left their socks in his washing machine. That sort of thing just doesn't happen to white medical students. The kind of aggression and neglect he and others like him suffer at the hands of authority is stunning.

As for "They work harder"... consider the impact of multiple generations of success, versus multiple generations of failure. I grew up what southerners call "poor white trash". I escaped, but barely, and mostly because I was very determined and very smart. When I landed at a high quality private college, I was utterly unprepared for the experience. I grew up listening to my father refer to the wealthy men he worked for as "educated mow-rawns", in that thick Kentucky accent of his. Going to college, surrounded by the children of lawyers and professors and the like, their family life was as alien to me as my dad bouncing in and out of jail was to them. I was embarrassed and ashamed.

Now, throw in the past century of crap that has kept even hardworking and talented black families down, and you can see where the problem might start.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#47

Post by redthrowaway » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

Why is it the responsibility of the companies to fix this? In the same way that it seems perverse that Apple is the one standing up to the USG on privacy, why do companies bear the moral responsibility for fixing social ills?

The only way a company should be responsible for hiring underrepresented minorities is if there was a market inefficiency to be exploited. And even then, that's a responsibility to their shareholders, not to society. And "we hire black people because we don't have to pay them as much" probably wouldn't go over too well, anyway.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#48

Post by protomyth » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 9:43 PM UTC

bobosha wrote: post #44

protomyth wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? A lot of schools don't teach anything about interviewing. Its not academic. In fact, a lot of the training videos used in schools that do teach "job skills" to prepare students make no mention of white board interviews. They talk about being polite, wearing a suit, grooming, etc. Judging an academic program on if they have ever…

A whiteboard is just a proxy for ability to think on one's feet and problem solve under pressure. It could just as well have been a workstation, a paper and pen....

which aren't taught either in the context of a job interview - watch some of the "amazing", "real life" training videos you can get from book publishers.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#49

Post by coldtea » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 9:45 PM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #4

zenplatypus wrote: post #2

It is vaguely mentioned in the article but I think controlling for the type of schools that students are exiting from is an important factor in determining if there is a "pipeline" problem. For example it was mentioned that Black and Hispanic Tech graduates are more likely to end up in office support roles. Out of the top 20 engineering/computer science programs in the country I doubt almost any students are ending u…

what systemic problem though? I'm hearing systemic a lot and it's more often looking suspiciously like a way to create a ghost that can't be fought so let's throw more money at any and every program to make a show of it.

You know, the kind of systemic that kept them legally segregated until the sixties -- that is, their parents time, and de facto segregated until today.

Or the kind of systemic that ensures their school districts are poorer and underfunded.

Or the kind of systemic that ensures you take the middle of the road when a black guy in a hoodie walks towards you in the same sidewalk.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#50

Post by protomyth » Fri, Feb 26, 2016, 9:46 PM UTC

duaneb wrote: post #41

protomyth wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? A lot of schools don't teach anything about interviewing. Its not academic. In fact, a lot of the training videos used in schools that do teach "job skills" to prepare students make no mention of white board interviews. They talk about being polite, wearing a suit, grooming, etc. Judging an academic program on if they have ever…

> They talk about being polite, wearing a suit, grooming, etc. Yikes, that's even worse. Some cultures will actively hold a suit against a candidate. I can't say I agree with that, but it's a little scary that they're giving stock advice to a highly dynamic field, very little of which is relevant. (Polite is good, being relaxed is better. Being suited is good, being comfortable is better.)

There are still quite a few places that will reject a candidate out of hand for not wearing a suit. I find that troubling, just as I would find the opposite troubling.

Well, stock advise is basically what text book publishers do.