Why I don't want stuff • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I don't want stuff

#271

Post by Grishnakh » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:34 PM UTC

enjo wrote: post #111

nostromo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish there was a startup in this space. I have so much house maintenance stuff. For example, I only really need a ladder once a year. But I keep it around forever because when you need a ladder, you need a ladder . I would love to not have to store and maintain all this stuff and to just request it on demand. Can someone solve that for me? I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes it's easier for me to just buy a new…

There are things like the Denver Tool Library ( http://denvertoollibrary.org/ ) that help to solve this problem. What I want is a delivery version. I'd pay $xx/month for access to tools and other household items I rarely need along with $x per delivery and pickup to not have to go get them.

The cost of renting something and having to pay for delivery is probably going to be more than just buying it outright and owning it after that for whenever you need it again.

Plus, the rental company is undoubtedly going to charge you jacked-up late fees when it turns out you don't get your project done on time and need to keep the tool for another day.

When it's so cheap to just go buy a workable tool from Harbor Freight, or a really nice tool from Home Depot, why bother renting some beat-up, abused, crappy tool from a rental place? On top of that, when I need a tool for something, I sure as hell don't want to sign up and have to wait a week for it, I need it now to fix something. I may not use it often, but when I do need it, it's invaluable to have it immediately ready to use.

Re: Why I don't want stuff

#272

Post by Grishnakh » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #109

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I tried renting stuff like camping gear, instead of owning it. The University athletic services was glad to rent me old-fashioned heavy tents and so on. For about $50 per campout. It was about the same price to buy good stuff, and use it a dozen times! I'm suspicious that an own-in-common club or organization would end up asking me to pay too much for old stuff. It'd be hard to avoid - they'd want to depreciate…

I think you're underestimating the cost of good equipment. Yes, a bunch of fragile Coleman gear at Walmart will all fit into that budget, but it would be quickly destroyed if put through the "government mule" life cycle of rented goods.

That "fragile gear" is lightweight and a lot better for hauling on backpacking trips. If you're not a gorilla and are careful with stuff, it'll last for decades. I had a cheap nylon tent that was probably 25 years old when I finally got rid of it; I sold it for $5 in a garage sale and it was still in great condition even though I used it extensively in Boy Scouts. I replaced it with a newer, nicer nylon tent that I barely use.

No, these tents probably won't hold up well with careless renters who don't care about taking care of stuff and abuse stuff. So why should I pay the same amount as a brand-new nylon test for some crappy old canvas tent with mold, which weighs 10 times as much, just so I don't have to own a tent? It makes no sense at all. I'd rather have a nice, clean tent that I own, and I can grab any time someone wants to go camping with me. Tents don't take up that much space when folded up. And even if the Walmart tent only lasts 3 trips, you'll still be saving money over the crappy rental tent.

Re: Why I don't want stuff

#273

Post by basseq » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #238

basseq wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a question of "need", but for most people in first-world countries: - Writing: Pens, Paper, Laptop - Walking: Shoes, Clothing (other than robe) - Music: iPod, Headphones - Reading: Comfortable chair - Drinking Tea: Teapot, china - Running: Specialized shoes and gear - Making Electronica: Synthesizers - Penmanship: Specialized quills and ink - Swimming: Swimsuit, goggles, towel The list goes on, but I'd argue…

> but for most people in first-world countries: Running: Specialized shoes and gear (...) Penmanship: Specialized quills and ink "Most people" in first world countries hardly ever run. The official statistics I've seen put "joggers and runners" as 17-18% of the US population, and their definition includes all the "people who went jogging or running within the last 12 months in the United States" -- so in reality, muc…

To clarify, when I say "most people", I mean, "most people who are XXers" (where XX is runners, calligraphers, music-makers, etc.). Example: while "most people" don't do penmanship (and don't need the tools of trade, obviously), "most people" who do penmanship will have specialized "gear". That's my point: to have a hobby that's more than a passing interest, "most people" will acquire "stuff" that is critical to that hobby.

(Aside: very sad statistic on U.S. runners.)

Re: Why I don't want stuff

#274

Post by Pxtl » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #209

Pxtl wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're underestimating the cost of good equipment. Yes, a bunch of fragile Coleman gear at Walmart will all fit into that budget, but it would be quickly destroyed if put through the "government mule" life cycle of rented goods.

Pffft. I bought 3lb backpacker 2-man tents on sale for $200. Used them carefully, they lasted for 25+ trips. Oh! I see - yes those tents were fragile and high-tech and would have probably lasted less long in general use. So that's part of the problem - rental to the public is hard on equipment. Again, its hard to see a startup model here that would work.

Somewhat offtopic, how often did you have to re-seal the seams on those? I brought out some nice old tents a summer or two ago that had served me well as a kid and sadly found that it was as waterproof as a sieve.

Re: Why I don't want stuff

#275

Post by theandrewbailey » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #125

VLM wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refrigerator door culture. At some point in life you will no longer be permitted not to have magnets on your fridge. I made it until I got married. Weaponized clothes are a thing too. Everyone knows nobody likes getting someone elses choice of clothes as a gift, especially not kids, but it is a socially acceptable weapon to kinda "get" the recipient. More a slap to the face than a punch to the face, but none the less…

I don't know, I've gotten lots of clothes I liked. I don't much enjoy going clothes shopping, so I appreciate other people putting in the effort as long as their impression of the things I'd wear is reasonably accurate.

I don't enjoy clothes shopping either, but Mom and I hit the stores soon after Christmas and take massive advantage of the sales.

Re: Why I don't want stuff

#276

Post by dragontamer » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:44 PM UTC

ashmud wrote: post #136

nostromo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish there was a startup in this space. I have so much house maintenance stuff. For example, I only really need a ladder once a year. But I keep it around forever because when you need a ladder, you need a ladder . I would love to not have to store and maintain all this stuff and to just request it on demand. Can someone solve that for me? I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes it's easier for me to just buy a new…

I am surprised big box hardware stores do not have programs to rent out bigger ladders. Personally, I do need a smaller ladder frequently, though. Community/family can be a good way to share tools, too. I have re-bought tools/parts I was fairly certain I already had, but simply did not have the time to sift through things to find. Especially for home projects that I had a small window to work on and I did not do my d…

The hard part about renting big ladders is transporting them. There are plenty of big-name places like Home Depot or Lowes that rent out their equipment like that.

Re: Why I don't want stuff

#277

Post by kylixz » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:46 PM UTC

enjo wrote: post #111

nostromo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish there was a startup in this space. I have so much house maintenance stuff. For example, I only really need a ladder once a year. But I keep it around forever because when you need a ladder, you need a ladder . I would love to not have to store and maintain all this stuff and to just request it on demand. Can someone solve that for me? I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes it's easier for me to just buy a new…

There are things like the Denver Tool Library ( http://denvertoollibrary.org/ ) that help to solve this problem. What I want is a delivery version. I'd pay $xx/month for access to tools and other household items I rarely need along with $x per delivery and pickup to not have to go get them.

+1 for DTL. I've used them quite a bit for projects and had great luck. Currently have been borrowing tools to rebuild a motorhome and without them I would be storing and laying out a significant investment of tools. I would pay quite a bit more per year for a "Netflix of Tools" if delivery were fast and reasonable.

Re: Why I don't want stuff

#278

Post by geebee » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:47 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #271

enjo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are things like the Denver Tool Library ( http://denvertoollibrary.org/ ) that help to solve this problem. What I want is a delivery version. I'd pay $xx/month for access to tools and other household items I rarely need along with $x per delivery and pickup to not have to go get them.

The cost of renting something and having to pay for delivery is probably going to be more than just buying it outright and owning it after that for whenever you need it again. Plus, the rental company is undoubtedly going to charge you jacked-up late fees when it turns out you don't get your project done on time and need to keep the tool for another day. When it's so cheap to just go buy a workable tool from Harbor F…

You've identified why I have so much clutter in my garage and house. I do exactly this - it's cheap to buy most of these tools compared to the cost of renting, and there's a surprising amount of overhead and liability in renting stuff.

That said, I do think there's something off about my accounting. I live in SF - the tool may cost X dollars, but what's the yearly rent on the square footage that the tool occupies? Just to sit there unused 99% of the time.

I'm starting to rent things not because it's cheaper but because I'm beginning to understand the psychological effects of having too much clutter in a relatively small house.

But yeah, renting is really expensive with all kinds of little gotchas, and it's a surprising hassle, too. Almost as much of a hassle as having a lot of clutter around.

Re: Why I don't want stuff

#279

Post by VLM » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:48 PM UTC

mbrock wrote: post #172

CydeWeys wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To expand on baking, you're going to need a huge variety of pots, pans, baking sheets, pie pans, cake containers, cupcake trays, mixing bowls, a stand mixer, a handheld mixer, rolling pins, ingredients, etc. I know because my sister is really into baking and she has all of that stuff and more; a whole kitchen full. By the time you're all said and done you're in for over $1,000, and a bunch of cupboards are full. The…

I'd like to emphasize that I have absolutely nothing against gear. But I'm a little surprised that people continue to insist that no, one really needs lots of stuff . It's just not true that you need a huge variety of stuff for over $1,000 to bake bread. Think about it. The history of bread goes back thirty thousand years . You don't need a cupcake tray. You don't even need a baguette pan to make decent baguettes. I'…

This is a group of predominantly young computer-people. They are not going to be wise to depreciation or the effects of old age.

If I buy a new video card, when I open the box its resale value instantly drops perhaps 50% of its price, and in perhaps two years its resale value is "you're gonna have to pay me to recycle that for you...". Money spent on computer hardware in 1981 dropped in value to $0 if not less by, perhaps, 1983. The experience is worthless, or negative worth, on your resume (trust me on that one) If you're a computer-person, money spent is money wasted, in the long run.

28 years ago I got a nice full set of fractional/number/letter drills in a Huot case. Instantly when I opened the package its value dropped from whatever it was sold for, to $10 at a garage sale. I get 28 years of use out of it, some are getting a little shorter from resharpening or have been replaced, and I could still get $10 at a garage sale. If I sold my drill bits to raise $10 today, I'd just have to rebuy them again in a month or two at full list price and eat the substantial depreciation a second time. Its not like my world is going to run out of things to make holes thru. I'm not wealthy enough to buy the same tools over and over; likewise I'm not wealthy enough to buy cheap tools that fall apart such that I have to buy them over and over. I'm not wealthy enough to rent things I use on a regular basis. Actually I am wealthy enough now, but character traits like this are exactly the cause of why I'm wealthy enough now. Minimization of total overall lifetime system cost. Nobody ever got rich by spending more money than is necessary.

Now multiply the set of drill bits by every other capital good / tool I own, and in some capital intensive hobbies it adds up. And there's really nothing wrong with that. That's how you end up with (old) carpenters having $30K shops like my accountant neighbor, or (old) bakers with $1K of gear, (old) ham radio operators with $10K radio stations... At least with some hobbies, not making dumb decisions adds up over time.

Re: Why I don't want stuff

#280

Post by kaitai » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 10:00 PM UTC

0xffff2 wrote: post #102

mbrock wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, it's possible to "do things" that don't require a lot of extra things. Writing, walking, meditating, listening to music, reading, making out, drinking tea, running, dancing, making electronic music, math, logic, praying, thinking, debating, making movies with your smartphone (one such movie recently won a documentary award), origami, chess, baking, cooking, lifting at a gym, hackerspace participation, movi…

To take just two examples to add to my list above: Tea drinker -> Three different tea sets, which get used variously depending on what kind of tea I am drinking. baker -> An entire kitchen full of tools. Perhaps I'm taking the article too literally, but if he really only has the things that came with his apartment, so clothes, a laptop, and headphones, he really can't do most of the things on your list, at least not…

It's interesting to take a view that contrasts with Sivers' article and most of us on HN -- that of someone on the edge of homelessness. I remember reading Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed and thinking about cooking and baking. When she was living in a motel room rented by the week, it was hard to cook healthy food because she didn't have the budget to buy a pan, a pot, a spatula, some silverware, a mixing bowl, etc. Besides the budget, there was the problem of storing them in a precarious living situation. They're annoying to schlep.

To start off my minimalist college years, my mother brought me to the local Goodwill where I bought one fork, one knife, one spoon, one bowl, etc. Had to add chopsticks to get a really complete eating set, but these got me off to a good start. Even this minimalist set (chopsticks, knife, spoon, bowl, wooden mixing spoon, pot) require space, and they don't allow you to bake cookies (need a baking sheet!). I was nowhere near homeless though I could fit all my belongings into one room as wide as the length of a twin bed.

Sivers knows that if he wants to make pastries, he can buy or borrow pastry-making equipment -- just as I can. So he doesn't need to keep it around. Those with little by necessity rather than choice don't have that confidence.

Not wanting stuff is for people who have access the stuff they need.