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Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#61

Post by frandroid »

toyg wrote: post #55
mattmanser wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's odd, yesterday they had a fairly prominently displayed piece praising it (at least for the UK): http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/21/apple-s... If you look through the other articles it's all been fairly pro-Apple: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/apple It's a bit strange that a business writer has been allowed to fairly anonymously attack Apple, in what has been a pro-Snowdon/privacy paper.

pro-Snowden... but openly anti-Assange, and moving to the right of the political discourse at increasing speed (they dropped UK Labour in 2010, campaigned against the current Labour leader, and are keen to appease the US market).

The Guardian is trying to grow in the U.S. market, not appease it. If the Guardian does nothing, it's not under any kind of threat other than being ignored. You appease someone who threatens you.

/nitpick

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#62

Post by frandroid »

codeisawesome wrote: post #23

> Apple has been excoriated by presidential candidates, and backed into the tightest of corners by the FBI: the moral case for refusing to hack into a terrorist’s phone is hard to make – particularly in the US over an Isis-inspired attack during an election year. I can't believe The Guardian is sounding so hostile to Apple in this context. Don't they understand the consequences?!

The article is doing an analysis of the current situation, not declaring its support for one side of the other. Like others have pointed out, there are other articles supporting Apple's position, but one must still see the threats for what they are.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#63

Post by matthewmacleod »

studentrob wrote: post #57
matthewmacleod wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but feel you are being extraordinarily uncharitable to what I think is anything but a slavish attack on the tech sector, and rather a fairly accurate description of some of the issues it is going to face. This article does not in anyway advocate against encryption, and instead point out – completely correctly – that the increasing influence of tech companies in day-to-day life is going to mean they start…

Your interpretation of the article is different from mine and the above commenters, and that is okay I was just trying to help you see how it could be perceived as anti-tech. You seemed eager to learn why others felt that way.

This is a good point. Thanks! I do understand the points made.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#64

Post by fixermark »

jordanb wrote: post #52
fixermark wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect there's an emotional angle to this that people may not be aware of, either. There are quite a few people active in software engineering today at major companies who grew up with the sci-fi ecosystem of dystopia stories that were relatively prevalent in the '70s, '80s, and '90s. Add into the mix their observations and experiences watching the dotcom boom and bust, the first major cases of the FBI chasing dow…

Why does it matter if party A or party B is "the establishment?" Personally I think nobody should be able to mass-surveil the entire population. And I don't trust the tech giants at all (especially on matters of privacy) but in the words of Henry Kissinger: "there are no permanent allies, only permanent interests."

It speaks to the disconnect that governments should have predicted but didn't: from one point of view, governments and big tech multinationals should be in the same boat (keeping the "users" safe and secure in their daily activities, able to go about their day without worrying about externalities that they've trusted big organizations to protect them from). But tech company employees don't generally see themselves as part of the same establishment ecosystem as the governments who want them to work together.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#65

Post by studentrob »

toyg wrote: post #58
rayiner wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think even the token IT guy is wondering how the FBI's request to break specific iPhones in their possession is going to undermine iPhone security for everybody.

I think the token IT guy is not even wondering, he's pretty certain the FBI request is perfectly reasonable. Most corporate sysadmins are BOFHs, relishing the power they wield and convinced they can do no wrong. They have nothing against electronic surveillance -- they practice it daily with gusto, they just think they're smart enough to avoid someone else doing it to them. Hell, the whole "root" model is fundamental…

Sysadmins understand encryption well enough to know there are plenty of different tools to use to encrypt data.

Allowing a backdoor to one tool does not grant access to every criminal communication.

Therefore, the request is pointless, it does nothing to make us more secure, and every IT guy knows it. The sysadmin may not care about protecting others' privacy, but he knows this isn't a good way to catch criminals because it won't work. The criminals will just use something else that the US government, or perhaps any government, cannot compel to add a backdoor.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#67

Post by Cuuugi »

As i understand the situation, the FBI only wanted Apple to create a operating system that lives in the devices ram that removes the wipe after 10 tries. This would not comprimise Apple's encryption since the operating system would still contain Apple's private key (and the FBI added one time use provisions, also that this could happen in an Apple Facility).

Hence the question is, Does Apple have to make a different OS (so that the FBI could brute force) to see what is contained on the particular device?

I think they will be forced to, and i don't know that i have a problem with it.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#68

Post by Silhouette »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #53
studentrob wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are anti-tech. Anything anti-encryption is anti-tech: tech doesn't exist without encryption. > the moral case for refusing to hack into a terrorist’s phone is hard to make – particularly in the US over an Isis-inspired attack during an election year. It isn't hard. The case is a right to privacy, which also happens to be a huge part of ANY tech company's business. The reason we use so much tech these days is bec…

I can't help but feel you are being extraordinarily uncharitable to what I think is anything but a slavish attack on the tech sector, and rather a fairly accurate description of some of the issues it is going to face. This article does not in anyway advocate against encryption, and instead point out – completely correctly – that the increasing influence of tech companies in day-to-day life is going to mean they start…

This article ... point out ... that the increasing influence of tech companies in day-to-day life is going to mean they start coming under pressure in ways they have traditionally avoided.

It's also worth keeping in mind that this greater scrutiny of practices in the tech industry and how ethical and/or legal they are is probably no bad thing in general. In this particular case I expect most of us on HN would see the wider implications and side with Apple. However, the fact that Apple and other big tech firms are having to make these kinds of changes in the first place, to actively defend their customers' security and privacy and thus protect their own reputations as trusted suppliers, is itself a consequence of greater scrutiny in recent years and the tech industry no longer having carte blanche to make its own rules.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#69

Post by simoncion »

[deleted] wrote: post #26
zaphar wrote: post #21

I'm not so sure that Apple wasn't aware and perhaps even looking for a battle with the {FBI,NSA,CIA,...} when they added encryption. You don't start designing a system that makes you incapable of fulfilling a warrant without expecting and indeed preparing for those battles in the future. In a way with things like NSL's and Secret warrants and courts the US had backed companies like Apple and Google into a wall. Post…

[deleted]

You're way off base on a bunch of your points, but here's one I'll address:

> The "All Writs Act" doesn't apply here because...

The All Writs Act appears to be somewhat frequently used to compel assistance with things like bypassing phone lock screens. It's not at all clear to this amateur law nerd -and appears to be not entirely clear in the professional law wonk community- that the attempt to use the AWA to compel Apple to break their own crypto scheme is inappropriate.

I get that you're mad about things. Bad argument motivated by anger rarely changes anything.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#70

Post by toyg »

frandroid wrote: post #61
toyg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pro-Snowden... but openly anti-Assange, and moving to the right of the political discourse at increasing speed (they dropped UK Labour in 2010, campaigned against the current Labour leader, and are keen to appease the US market).

The Guardian is trying to grow in the U.S. market, not appease it. If the Guardian does nothing, it's not under any kind of threat other than being ignored. You appease someone who threatens you. /nitpick

They are appeasing the (mostly US-based) online market that is making them obsolete. See what happened to The Independent? That will happen to The Guardian as well, unless they can become a real player in the US and hence globally. I could have used "begging" as well but it would have been a bit degrading.
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