Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 91 posts

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#51

Post by JoeAltmaier »

twoodfin wrote: post #50
rayiner wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think even the token IT guy is wondering how the FBI's request to break specific iPhones in their possession is going to undermine iPhone security for everybody.

I'm actually wondering this, too. Is there a technological reason why Apple fulfilling this request makes their (not subject-to-warrant) customers less secure? Why isn't their private code-signing key the linchpin? I fully buy that there are legal, cultural, and diplomatic reasons that this could make Apple's customers less secure in the long run by setting a precedent, etc. I guess one argument is that whatever code…

It won't have 'bugs'. It'll be written to allow FBI access at will. That's the next step, right?

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#52

Post by jordanb »

fixermark wrote: post #42
zaphar wrote: post #21

I'm not so sure that Apple wasn't aware and perhaps even looking for a battle with the {FBI,NSA,CIA,...} when they added encryption. You don't start designing a system that makes you incapable of fulfilling a warrant without expecting and indeed preparing for those battles in the future. In a way with things like NSL's and Secret warrants and courts the US had backed companies like Apple and Google into a wall. Post…

I suspect there's an emotional angle to this that people may not be aware of, either. There are quite a few people active in software engineering today at major companies who grew up with the sci-fi ecosystem of dystopia stories that were relatively prevalent in the '70s, '80s, and '90s. Add into the mix their observations and experiences watching the dotcom boom and bust, the first major cases of the FBI chasing dow…

Why does it matter if party A or party B is "the establishment?"

Personally I think nobody should be able to mass-surveil the entire population. And I don't trust the tech giants at all (especially on matters of privacy) but in the words of Henry Kissinger: "there are no permanent allies, only permanent interests."

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#53

Post by matthewmacleod »

studentrob wrote: post #43
matthewmacleod wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I am seeing the same tone as you. These quotes don't sound anti-tech, they are discussing difficulties and issues in the sector – that's quite distinct!

They are anti-tech. Anything anti-encryption is anti-tech: tech doesn't exist without encryption. > the moral case for refusing to hack into a terrorist’s phone is hard to make – particularly in the US over an Isis-inspired attack during an election year. It isn't hard. The case is a right to privacy, which also happens to be a huge part of ANY tech company's business. The reason we use so much tech these days is bec…

I can't help but feel you are being extraordinarily uncharitable to what I think is anything but a slavish attack on the tech sector, and rather a fairly accurate description of some of the issues it is going to face. This article does not in anyway advocate against encryption, and instead point out – completely correctly – that the increasing influence of tech companies in day-to-day life is going to mean they start coming under pressure in ways they have traditionally avoided.

tech doesn't exist without encryption.

The Guardian is not arguing against encryption. It's pointing out, completely correctly, that in increased availability of strong encryption raises issues that we have no yet dealt with.

It isn't hard. The case is a right to privacy, which also happens to be a huge part of ANY tech company's business. The reason we use so much tech these days is because of the privacy controls. Also, Snowden and others pointed out the FBI probably has all useful the information it could retrieve about this terrorist anyway, so the work phone is relatively useless.

I don't agree – it is a difficult case to make. I happen to agree that access is not justified in this case, but it's hardly completely obvious that this is the case.

Translation - "tech companies are creating problems in modern life akin to oil companies' oil spills"

No – this states, again quite correctly, that increased presence and use of the products provided by tech companies means that the decisions they make have wider impact. It's a traditionally unregulated, not-really-seen-as-worthy-of-regulation sector, but as the decisions and events surrounding these companies gain more public awareness, there will be increased pressure to deal with the outcomes.

"Tech companies are in a weak position and will probably lose this battle"

Again, just no. This argument clearly points out that the FBI case has brought a simmering matter to a bit of a head, and that it's difficult to see a way in which Apple will come out of it looking good. Either they are "helping to shield terrorists" or they are "signing away customers' privacy".

"What if" sounds like the author is warning of impending doom on the tech sector.

That's not an anti-tech, though. It's a good point – what happens when something unambiguously bad happens in the future? The Guardian is not saying "we can't have encryption because this might happen" – it's saying "This might happen in the future, how will tech companies cope?"

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#54

Post by zaphar »

fixermark wrote: post #42
zaphar wrote: post #21

I'm not so sure that Apple wasn't aware and perhaps even looking for a battle with the {FBI,NSA,CIA,...} when they added encryption. You don't start designing a system that makes you incapable of fulfilling a warrant without expecting and indeed preparing for those battles in the future. In a way with things like NSL's and Secret warrants and courts the US had backed companies like Apple and Google into a wall. Post…

I suspect there's an emotional angle to this that people may not be aware of, either. There are quite a few people active in software engineering today at major companies who grew up with the sci-fi ecosystem of dystopia stories that were relatively prevalent in the '70s, '80s, and '90s. Add into the mix their observations and experiences watching the dotcom boom and bust, the first major cases of the FBI chasing dow…

This is I think very true. The government underestimated I think the anger that had been and has been growing in the tech sector around these issues. I try myself to be objective and still find myself having an initial reaction of anger.

It can be very difficult sometimes to distinguish between your purely emotional reaction and the objective risk factors involved that you need to balance. There is very much an us against them mentality that frankly seems to have caught the Government off guard a bit.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#55

Post by toyg »

mattmanser wrote: post #35
lhnz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so surprising. A lot of people have been jealously watching on as 'fat cat' 'tech bros' eat into their industries. Now there are signs that the market will correct and that technology companies will not continue to get free passes with which to ignore government. In short, they want to see blood and will settle to see it whichever way they can. Tech on the whole needs to wise up politically. It cannot contin…

It's odd, yesterday they had a fairly prominently displayed piece praising it (at least for the UK): http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/21/apple-s... If you look through the other articles it's all been fairly pro-Apple: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/apple It's a bit strange that a business writer has been allowed to fairly anonymously attack Apple, in what has been a pro-Snowdon/privacy paper.

pro-Snowden... but openly anti-Assange, and moving to the right of the political discourse at increasing speed (they dropped UK Labour in 2010, campaigned against the current Labour leader, and are keen to appease the US market).

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#56

Post by studentrob »

fweespeech wrote: post #37
studentrob wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretend I'm the token IT guy in your friend network, "The FBI request to unlock Apple phones will not make you more safe. Criminals will use an alternative encryption device or app to communicate, or create their own." It shouldn't take long to disprove the government's claim.

The scary part is that doesn't appear to be enough anymore. People are fundamentally irrational and are willing to believe the media narrative without attempting to think about the consequences critically.

It's too soon to get a feel for the media narrative, but, what do you think that will be? Doesn't Apple buy ads?

Our media isn't always pro-government, thankfully, so let's see what comes out. So far I see reports of Cook's statement, the Apple Q&A, and Comey's letter. Some are opinionated but most are just telling the story.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#57

Post by studentrob »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #53
studentrob wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are anti-tech. Anything anti-encryption is anti-tech: tech doesn't exist without encryption. > the moral case for refusing to hack into a terrorist’s phone is hard to make – particularly in the US over an Isis-inspired attack during an election year. It isn't hard. The case is a right to privacy, which also happens to be a huge part of ANY tech company's business. The reason we use so much tech these days is bec…

I can't help but feel you are being extraordinarily uncharitable to what I think is anything but a slavish attack on the tech sector, and rather a fairly accurate description of some of the issues it is going to face. This article does not in anyway advocate against encryption, and instead point out – completely correctly – that the increasing influence of tech companies in day-to-day life is going to mean they start…

Your interpretation of the article is different from mine and the above commenters, and that is okay

I was just trying to help you see how it could be perceived as anti-tech. You seemed eager to learn why others felt that way.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#58

Post by toyg »

rayiner wrote: post #40
studentrob wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretend I'm the token IT guy in your friend network, "The FBI request to unlock Apple phones will not make you more safe. Criminals will use an alternative encryption device or app to communicate, or create their own." It shouldn't take long to disprove the government's claim.

I think even the token IT guy is wondering how the FBI's request to break specific iPhones in their possession is going to undermine iPhone security for everybody.

I think the token IT guy is not even wondering, he's pretty certain the FBI request is perfectly reasonable.

Most corporate sysadmins are BOFHs, relishing the power they wield and convinced they can do no wrong. They have nothing against electronic surveillance -- they practice it daily with gusto, they just think they're smart enough to avoid someone else doing it to them.

Hell, the whole "root" model is fundamentally authoritarian in principle, no matter how hard we try not to say it. It might have been born out of engineering necessity, but it has long generated its own cultural artefacts. It might have been balanced somewhat by historical accident (i.e. west-coast liberal culture, phreaking etc), but this balance has been eroded when the IT job market exploded and all sorts of people were onboarded.

Modern sysadmins would find nothing strange with the FBI request. They special-case their way out of ethics on a regular basis already.

Post reply on HN