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Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#21

Post by zaphar »

I'm not so sure that Apple wasn't aware and perhaps even looking for a battle with the {FBI,NSA,CIA,...} when they added encryption. You don't start designing a system that makes you incapable of fulfilling a warrant without expecting and indeed preparing for those battles in the future.

In a way with things like NSL's and Secret warrants and courts the US had backed companies like Apple and Google into a wall. Post Snowden everyone knows that the Government can get information about you from them without your knowledge and you will have no recourse. It's a PR battle those companies can't win. So they did an end run. Go ahead and get your secret warrants and send those NSL's it's physically impossible for us to get you the information you want.

It forced this whole thing out into open. I can't help but think this sort of legal battle is both expected and in some cases desired by the likes of Apple and Google. They finally get to fight these battles out in the open and any loss of privacy can be blamed on the government rather than the company. It's a kind of PR win whether they win the court case or not.

Of course there is still the problem of not looking pro-terrorist in the process which is another risk to factor in. But at least it's a public debate rather than a private one now.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#22

Post by dave_sullivan »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #16
p01926 wrote: post #4

You can almost hear the Guardian's business leader writers rubbing their hands at the prospect. Which is as shameful and shortsighted as it is atypical for the Guardian. I would guess the team behind this article are acutely aware of the rate their owners are burning through cash and are anticipating massive layoffs soon. Perhaps they're looking for a lifeboat with the Apple-despising Financial Times?

I'm missing what statement you're trying to make here – the point of the article is that the tech sector, which has traditionally be very unregulated, is starting to bump up against issues around wider social impact and state regulation. That may or may not be true, but I don't really understand why you've reacted so negatively to what seems to be a quite valid view to take.

> the moral case for refusing to hack into a terrorist’s phone is hard to make – particularly in the US over an Isis-inspired attack during an election year.

> Technology companies may not create oil spills, but their effects on modern life are suddenly spreading across a gamut of topics – privacy, tax, regulation, safety, even housing

> That’s why the San Bernardino case could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. The FBI knows that the publicity from this battle won’t be favourable to Apple, whichever way the courts rule.

> What if the next case involves taxis and short lets used for child trafficking? Or tax avoidance turning out to fund terrorism? Those may sound farfetched, but they’re only a form of Kranzberg’s first law: “Technology is neither good nor bad; nor is it neutral.”

> This week, the tech business is learning, to its reputational cost, just what that really means.

People may be taking offensive to the author not outright denouncing the FBI. He also doesn't sound like a fan of the tech industry (which is certainly ok). But there's a definite tone conveyed in just a few paragraphs.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#23

Post by codeisawesome »

> Apple has been excoriated by presidential candidates, and backed into the tightest of corners by the FBI: the moral case for refusing to hack into a terrorist’s phone is hard to make – particularly in the US over an Isis-inspired attack during an election year.

I can't believe The Guardian is sounding so hostile to Apple in this context. Don't they understand the consequences?!

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#24

Post by forgotpwtomain »

rayiner wrote: post #19

It's hard being on the wrong side of prevailing sentiments, and when all this pans out I think people will be a little shocked at how the tech sector's enormous financial advantages will have carried less weight than anyone expected. You can't win politics with money alone. You need a narrative that appeals to peoples' values. Privacy is not a winner in this regard, nor is unrestricted markets (note the leading repub…

> People aren't going to reflexively favor technological progress for its own sake when they see it undermining things they care about (jobs, security, etc).

Correct me if I'm wrong it sounds like you are saying encryption is undermining security? It might be you have that backwards?

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#25

Post by PopsiclePete »

forgotpwtomain wrote: post #24
rayiner wrote: post #19

It's hard being on the wrong side of prevailing sentiments, and when all this pans out I think people will be a little shocked at how the tech sector's enormous financial advantages will have carried less weight than anyone expected. You can't win politics with money alone. You need a narrative that appeals to peoples' values. Privacy is not a winner in this regard, nor is unrestricted markets (note the leading repub…

> People aren't going to reflexively favor technological progress for its own sake when they see it undermining things they care about (jobs, security, etc). Correct me if I'm wrong it sounds like you are saying encryption is undermining security? It might be you have that backwards?

Like he said, it's all about the narrative. Let me demonstrate. Pretend you're an average voter who has never heard of "Hacker" News.

"Encryption is used by terrorists and evil-doers to hide their nefarious plans to harm Americans and American values. Innocent and hard-working Americans have nothing to hide. Only those who wish to harm us do. Had Apple allowed the FBI to listen on emails and conversations and text messages, San Bernardino would not have happened".

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#26

Post by [deleted] »

zaphar wrote: post #21

I'm not so sure that Apple wasn't aware and perhaps even looking for a battle with the {FBI,NSA,CIA,...} when they added encryption. You don't start designing a system that makes you incapable of fulfilling a warrant without expecting and indeed preparing for those battles in the future. In a way with things like NSL's and Secret warrants and courts the US had backed companies like Apple and Google into a wall. Post…

[deleted]

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#27

Post by studentrob »

The article is arguing that tech companies used to operate with impunity and are now facing tougher times.

Which company operated without consequences? Microsoft had to decouple IE years ago, and other monopolies have been forced to break apart or sell off pieces. Software patents have caused plenty of headaches and force us to walk on egg shells, hire expensive defense attorneys, or lobby congress for more reasonable laws that promote innovation.

This article is all over the place. Leader or not, it's too unfocused to make sense. It's clear whoever compiled and published it does not really understand tech.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#28

Post by lhnz »

codeisawesome wrote: post #23

> Apple has been excoriated by presidential candidates, and backed into the tightest of corners by the FBI: the moral case for refusing to hack into a terrorist’s phone is hard to make – particularly in the US over an Isis-inspired attack during an election year. I can't believe The Guardian is sounding so hostile to Apple in this context. Don't they understand the consequences?!

It's not so surprising.

A lot of people have been jealously watching on as 'fat cat' 'tech bros' eat into their industries. Now there are signs that the market will correct and that technology companies will not continue to get free passes with which to ignore government. In short, they want to see blood and will settle to see it whichever way they can.

Tech on the whole needs to wise up politically. It cannot continue to accept the negative characterisations of its members, nor can it continue to do whatever it wants without any political ramifications. Even if we believe we're doing the right thing, we'll need to redeem ourselves in the public eye and critically evaluate solutions to social problems we've been implicated in (whether or not we are the sole cause of them.)

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#29

Post by vidarh »

p01926 wrote: post #4

You can almost hear the Guardian's business leader writers rubbing their hands at the prospect. Which is as shameful and shortsighted as it is atypical for the Guardian. I would guess the team behind this article are acutely aware of the rate their owners are burning through cash and are anticipating massive layoffs soon. Perhaps they're looking for a lifeboat with the Apple-despising Financial Times?

> the rate their owners are burning through cash and are anticipating massive layoffs soon.

The Scott Trust, which owns the Guardian Media Group had about 1.1 billion pounds net assets, of which the vast majority are liquid, as of end of March 2015 (after they've over the last few years sold of shares in various regional newspapers and AutoTrader, shoring up their balance sheet massively).

The sole purpose of The Scott Trust is to secure The Guardian in perpetuity.

There may be layoffs at some point. There may not be. But losing money for years on end is in itself not a problem for The Guardian. They'll want to at some point trim the loss down a bit to not eat to much into the capital, but at current rates then have quite literally decades of runway.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#30

Post by vidarh »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #14
estefan wrote: post #2

WTF? Two completely unrelated stories in one. I quit the Guardian last month and this is one reason why...

You're reading a leader – in print, this would traditionally be printed all on the same page, covering a couple of issues and stating the opinion of the newspaper. It's certainly ubiquitous and familiar in the UK (I don't know about internationally) and it's not at all unusual.

It's common in lots of countries. Some are just not used to seeing them online.
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