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Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#111

Post by pdkl95 »

SquareWheel wrote: post #50
herge wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple also makes most of it's money by selling phones, not user information...

>Apple also makes most of it's money by selling phones, not user information... Google is the advertiser. I'm surprised how often people make this mistake. They don't sell user data to other advertisers. This not only goes against their terms of service, but also makes no business sense. Why would they give up their best signal for targeted ads?

The data that Google (or anybody else) collects is probably going to be around approximately "forever". Do you really believe Google will:

1) never sell that data at any time in the future (perhaps if they should suffer a bad year financially), and

2) that they will be able to retain control of that data (no leaks, no employees that abuse access, no attacks from other people interested in the data).

Without these criteria, saying anything about what Google "re4ally does" with their data is a best describing the past and maybe the present. Why does everybody act as if current business plans are some sort of Truth that we can rely on? Plans change, management changes - unless it's in writing on an actual contract, it's just wishful thinking.

Of course, this doesn't matter when talking about Google and their data. We already know they give data to the government because they are part of PRISM[1].

As for advertisers, the scenerios "Google gave customer data to an advertiser" and "Google did the targeting work for the advertiser as a (paid) service" differ only in minor details. The end result is the same. There numerous creative ways the data can be moved by proxy or as a service.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Prism_sl...

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#112

Post by snowwrestler »

mahyarm wrote: post #57
vinceguidry wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much doubt that. These agencies are very capable of operating outside of the law if it will get the job done. All a stunt like this does is raise public awareness, limiting their options. They wouldn't do that unless they couldn't get it done via other means. Only the fact that this is a terror case makes them willing to roll the dice at all on the craps table of public opinion. It gives them an advantage, but…

Well for a million + they could delaminate the chips and read the private keys off them in a painstaking way.

But that is incredibly risky; it would be easy to make a mistake, and if they do, the information is gone forever, which is the worst case scenario for them.

I absolutely believe that the FBI thinks this is the only way to get this data.

Yes, they might like to get a strong precedent in favor of this, but what if the precedent goes against them? You never know what you're going to get in court. This would be appealed to the 9th Circuit, which has a history of being skeptical of government arguments in favor of collecting digital data. And if the Supreme Court deadlocks 4-4 (as it could now), the appellate ruling would stand.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#113

Post by grillvogel »

mintplant wrote: post #33
vinceguidry wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, that's a laugh. If it were an Android phone, the feds wouldn't have had to call anyone. They'd have just broken the device's security and gotten what they wanted. Only Apple takes security seriously .

I would wager that the FBI and CIA are technically capable of breaking the security on this phone. This is likely more about setting legal precedent via a case that is very much in the public eye.

using their magical AES breaking powers?

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#114

Post by ignoramous »

PeCaN wrote: post #42
ignoramous wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just made me realise that Apple is a true "do no evil" company and not Google, for all its technology powress and fancy marketing. A sad realisation as I have been using Google products for almost everything-- they pitch up everything under the F/OSS banner and it's so tempting. I think I should consider moving to iOS pretty seriously. I had been dismissing it for being over-priced and not being OSS. But the tru…

I feel the same way. I don't actually like iOS that much, and historically I haven't liked Apple for their human rights issues, but seeing that they relatively consistently take a stand on privacy is making me consider switching. I don't mind the extra cost that much if I can be assured that the phone is the actual product the company is making money from—not by selling ads targeting me. The problem is that Android p…

Android M is fraught with issues (memory leakage, battery drain). Looks like the QA at Android HQ missed a trick or two before signing off this release.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#115

Post by sosuke »

asgfoi wrote: post #98
AngrySkillzz wrote: post #69

Of course the industry response is muted; this is the chilling effect that we were all worried about. Most Big Co's don't want to put themselves in opposition to an organization as powerful and well-funded as the US intelligence apparatus. I'm sure they are all on Apple's side, but are less willing to speak out about it because they fear the consequences. If you're cynical, you might think that this case is all about…

Do you think they choose to ask Apple to do this in such a public way, because they are very confident the phone will contain information that will help with the investigation, which will make a positive precedent about this method for future requests, and also provide 'lobbying power' when new laws will be considered?

The phone might not even have to contain anything useful for it to be said to have been helpful by the elimination of that avenue of research. "Apple helped by showing the phone had no information on the attack and we've moved on to other investigative avenues."

One could twist things all day long to fit a goal.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#116

Post by travoc »

asgfoi wrote: post #98
AngrySkillzz wrote: post #69

Of course the industry response is muted; this is the chilling effect that we were all worried about. Most Big Co's don't want to put themselves in opposition to an organization as powerful and well-funded as the US intelligence apparatus. I'm sure they are all on Apple's side, but are less willing to speak out about it because they fear the consequences. If you're cynical, you might think that this case is all about…

Do you think they choose to ask Apple to do this in such a public way, because they are very confident the phone will contain information that will help with the investigation, which will make a positive precedent about this method for future requests, and also provide 'lobbying power' when new laws will be considered?

They can be confident because they are free to assert whatever they want about the contents of the phone. Nobody will have access to information that contradicts their assertions.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#117

Post by rconti »

ignoramous wrote: post #37
gtrubetskoy wrote: post #3

What sets Apple apart from Googles and Facebooks is that it's the only company that stores the data in way that Apple itself cannot read it. This is why the others have little to say on the subject - there is no issue of a "backdoor", because there is no wall to begin with when it comes to Google or FB, their business model depends on reading and analyzing your emails and posts.

This just made me realise that Apple is a true "do no evil" company and not Google, for all its technology powress and fancy marketing. A sad realisation as I have been using Google products for almost everything-- they pitch up everything under the F/OSS banner and it's so tempting. I think I should consider moving to iOS pretty seriously. I had been dismissing it for being over-priced and not being OSS. But the tru…

It's not about evil vs not evil. It's about how to make profits. They've chosen different models. I tend to side with Apple's method, but that doesn't mean I don't use both companies' products, and I'll happily avoid one or the other when I feel that features are lacking.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#118

Post by calvin_c »

blinkingled wrote: post #81
unethical_ban wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is. Apple's fight with the US is based on the fact they facilitate the encryption of user data so that even Apple doesn't see content. When the other titans don't have that feature, they have less of a stake in the argument at hand.

Is Google or Microsoft's business model dependent on selling your info to anyone other than themselves? Do you think if they did that they would stand to lose business? Their business model is to sell ads to 3rd parties based on the information they have about you. Selling your info itself would be detrimental to their business.

Even if they don't sell it, their business model requires that they have access to it. Apple's argument here is that they don't have it.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#119

Post by JustSomeNobody »

vinceguidry wrote: post #13
AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tim Cook is the only one doing the right thing here. Because it was Tim Cook who was dragged into this mess. What if the shooter had an Android phone, rather than an iPhone? I'm sure Lary Page would be penning a similar letter, in that situation.

Hah, that's a laugh. If it were an Android phone, the feds wouldn't have had to call anyone. They'd have just broken the device's security and gotten what they wanted. Only Apple takes security seriously .

Yeah! That's why you can't even jailbreak every single one of their phones!

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#120

Post by jsprogrammer »

snowwrestler wrote: post #112
mahyarm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well for a million + they could delaminate the chips and read the private keys off them in a painstaking way.

But that is incredibly risky; it would be easy to make a mistake, and if they do, the information is gone forever, which is the worst case scenario for them. I absolutely believe that the FBI thinks this is the only way to get this data. Yes, they might like to get a strong precedent in favor of this, but what if the precedent goes against them? You never know what you're going to get in court. This would be appealed…

It seems like many people don't get the concept of evidence preservation.

Apple put in a feature, which they may circumvent, that will effectively brick the device if it is tampered in certain ways. The lowest risk option for retrieving the data is to get the people who designed the device to implement their circumvention method. That is exactly what the FBI asked for and what the judge agreed to.

Why should the FBI have to waste resources reverse engineering Apple's product (and risk destruction of evidence) when Apple is wholly capable of helping out?

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