For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#161

Post by Lawtonfogle » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 7:03 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #159

belorn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people intuitively understand that a person with 25 points lower IQ than the average population is going to have unique problems and go through life in a slightly different path and order than the average. However, for some reason, this is not easily understood regarding people with 25 points over the average. It's also a pattern on HN because it really is a rather new concept. In Sweden, the law that dictates t…

> Most people intuitively understand that a person with 25 points lower IQ than the average population is going to have unique problems and go through life in a slightly different path and order than the average. However, for some reason, this is not easily understood regarding people with 25 points over the average. "Most people intuitively understand that a person with $25k less income per year than the average pop…

These are two vastly different types of scales that cannot be compared so easily. Namely, IQ doesn't convert to power like money does.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#162

Post by seivan » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 7:09 PM UTC

draugadrotten wrote: post #129

> The vibe I'm getting from Sweden (I lived there for a while, learned the language and still follow the news), is that it's moving to a more and more class-segregated country. Sure, everybody can look for the best school for their children, but only parents from higher socioeconomic classes will do that. Hear, hear. The school system decline is also a political "hot potato" because of the connection to increasing im…

I'm surprised Dalhagskolan 1-5 and Husbyskolan 6-9 isn't on that list. I'm no genius, but think even I managed average MVG without ever studying at home.

It was that bad. Husbyskolan was exceptionally bad when I went there ~2000. My class was the last class with actual Swedes in it.

I agree with everything you brought up. My parents thought Hjällbo was so bad that they left for Husby around 1997.

Too be fair, immigrants didn't cause this. Curled generation and old Swedish communists together managed to cook this up. My parents are immigrants and didn't repeat the school mistakes with my brother. He's doing med school soon.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#163

Post by jokoon » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 7:09 PM UTC

rustynails wrote: post #131

jokoon wrote: post #79

I don't know if I'm gifted (I score 125 at some IQ test on abstraction when applying at a company, but still IQ is not always a correct to measure intelligence, so take this with a grain of salt), but my psychiatrist tells me I'm intelligent (he might say this to agree with me, maybe he doesn't think so and it's for another goal). Yet I'm unemployed, 30 year old, and can't manage to get hired or to do work that is gi…

I'd like to tell you about my most gifted friend. He is my classic definition of genius. He is a particularly lovely human being, handsome, tall and can do most intellectual tasks exceptionally well (eg. Chemistry, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, software engineering, etc). He matches the best I've seen in any of those fields (and I've been involved in complex systems and software for decades). So, wh…

> I thrive on these people.

What do you mean ? You mean you manage them ? I agree that it must be quite delicate. In recent years I've started to understand what politics, public opinion and management really are about. I guess that's something I'd tell a math genius to get interested in, which is the art of compromise, negotiation and game theory, which can apply to take care of twenty five-years-old kids.

> To wrap it all up: some people truly March to the beat of their own drum.

Well people who have higher intelligence feel and know they are smarter, and since they are less people who are as smart as them to contradict them, nobody really can question their thoughts.

> Good luck. I hope you find your groove.

Thank you, that's truly heartwarming to hear it.

> No one else will find it for you, unfortunately.

I guess one day psychology and management will evolve and gain traction to improve society, I'm not so desperate about the future.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#164

Post by seivan » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

legulere wrote: post #151

draugadrotten wrote: post #129

> The vibe I'm getting from Sweden (I lived there for a while, learned the language and still follow the news), is that it's moving to a more and more class-segregated country. Sure, everybody can look for the best school for their children, but only parents from higher socioeconomic classes will do that. Hear, hear. The school system decline is also a political "hot potato" because of the connection to increasing im…

Those numbers also show that segregation is already happening. It's extremely common that those immigrating to a more affluent country usually end up in lower socioeconomic classes. Filling a school almost only with the children of those of course is a recipe for a disaster. How the hell should lower class immigrants get out of that class when those are the only people around them?

It's irrelevant as long as parents take care of their part to ensure the kids are studying and behaving. That's the missing link. Sweden doesn't have that. You've relied to much on the government and that affects new immigrants to behave the same way but in areas where the government (schools, cops) has actually given up.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#165

Post by smrtinsert » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 7:42 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #52

baldfat wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People miss the point. Intelligence isn't a gift for most people it is just a curse that you have to over come.

See "The Simpsons" episode BABF22, "HOMЯ", for an hilarious exploration of this theme. In that episode, it is discovered that Homer's IQ was drastically lowered by an untreated childhood mishap. The damage is fixed, and Homer becomes much more intelligent than most of the other inhabitants of Springfield and it makes his life miserable, leading him to lament "is there no place for the man with the 105 IQ?" and purpos…

Artie: Hello, classmates. Instead of voting for some athletic hero or a pretty boy, you have elected me, your intellectual superior, as your king. Good for you.

- Simpsons

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#166

Post by zardo » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 7:51 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #75

belorn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people intuitively understand that a person with 25 points lower IQ than the average population is going to have unique problems and go through life in a slightly different path and order than the average. However, for some reason, this is not easily understood regarding people with 25 points over the average. It's also a pattern on HN because it really is a rather new concept. In Sweden, the law that dictates t…

> However, for some reason, this is not easily understood regarding people with 25 points over the average. Because most people of above-average intelligence go through life on the normal path, they just do it faster or better. Life is certainly going to be more difficult, more dangerous, and probably less fulfilling for someone with an IQ of 85 than it will be for someone with an IQ of 110 or 135.

>Because most people of above-average intelligence go through life on the normal path, they just do it faster or better.

More intelligent people may be less likely to learn how to work hard as a child. They learn that life is easy, and you can succeed without trying. When they get to something hard enough to require trying, they think they aren't smart enough to do it.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#167

Post by draw_down » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 7:57 PM UTC

willholloway wrote: post #67

clentaminator wrote: post #12

Ah yes, the monthly link to an article about intelligent/gifted children and the troubles their talents cause them, leading to all the self-proclaimed gifted HNers coming out of the woodwork declaiming "Me too! Me too! Finally someone who understands me!". Not dismissing the article itself, but it's definitely a pattern on HN.

You actually are dismissing the article itself, and the experiences of all the HNers that have experienced what it talks about firsthand. Your phrase "self-proclaimed gifted" is outright dismissive. This is a natural human reaction. The reminder of the existence of people smarter than ourselves often results in narcissistic injury, it feels bad, it can hurt. It's the reason gifted education is such a low and unpopula…

I'm fine with the dismissal, personally. Do I think some of this stuff describes me? Yes. Does that make me a special snowflake, or somehow more put-upon than others in the world? No, and I think that belief is harmful and self-absorbed.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#168

Post by untangler » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 8:06 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #147

I see this interesting article from Canada in 2015 was submitted while I was catching up on sleep after my third son applied the previous evening to a summer science research program for high school students. Most of my employment, research, writing, and parenting for the last decade or more has been related to the concerns of third-party-identified highly gifted children, for example children who are part of the Dav…

Thank you for the Confucius quote. Humbling and uplifting.

I suppose the inverse would be the parent who constantly tells their child how clever he is, and actively discourages him from mixing with other children. Unfortunately this does happen.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#169

Post by InclinedPlane » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 8:14 PM UTC

clentaminator wrote: post #12

Ah yes, the monthly link to an article about intelligent/gifted children and the troubles their talents cause them, leading to all the self-proclaimed gifted HNers coming out of the woodwork declaiming "Me too! Me too! Finally someone who understands me!". Not dismissing the article itself, but it's definitely a pattern on HN.

A perfect demonstration of the problem. Being above average intelligence is so great and wonderful, it means life should be easy for those folks, and it means we can dehumanize gifted individuals and downplay their problems. They can't be real problems right? Smart people can't have real problems, they're so smart!

The reality is that the system is ill serving many gifted individuals, so much so that it's not just causing gifted kids to not reach their potential but it's causing many of them to have diminished outcomes compared to "normal" kids, with some examples of terrible tragedy (suicide, homelessness, drug addiction, etc.)

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#170

Post by true_religion » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 8:16 PM UTC

goodJobWalrus wrote: post #66

true_religion wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's orthogonal to the article. Under a system designed to the lowest common denominator, those on the low end have to put X amount of effort in order to pass. Those who are gifted have to put in X-Y effort where Y can almost nearly equal X (leading to kids not ever learning how to study). The Swedish system basically begins with the proposition that all students should put out X effort. Gifted children get m…

What does it take to get into a gifted class in the US? Where I grew up, anyone can apply for these schools (not everyone gets in of course).

It depends on where and when you are talking about.

When I was growing up anyone who was nominated by their teachers would simply skip grades or get shifted into an honours program if it was available for their level.

Just as I was graduating high school however, all the gifted programs were phased out as being unnecessary (or unfair depending on whom you talked to). There was much hay made about the tight school budget needing to go to support students who were being left behind by the new national testing standards.

Now, though, ten years later, they have magnet schools for the talented which are by nomination only.