Live data from Hacker News

For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

calgaryherald.com

151–160 of 190 posts

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#151

> The vibe I'm getting from Sweden (I lived there for a while, learned the language and still follow the news), is that it's moving to a more and more class-segregated country. Sure, everybody can look for the best school for their children, but only parents from higher socioeconomic classes will do that. Hear, hear. The school system decline is also a political "hot potato" because of the connection to increasing im…

Those numbers also show that segregation is already happening. It's extremely common that those immigrating to a more affluent country usually end up in lower socioeconomic classes. Filling a school almost only with the children of those of course is a recipe for a disaster.

How the hell should lower class immigrants get out of that class when those are the only people around them?

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#152

I don't think our democratic society is very good for gifted/talented people. Democracy is kinda like 1 human and 10 chimpanzees living together, with the chimpanzees insisting that everybody are equal, and threatening violent sanctions whenever anybody behaves otherwise.

> I don't think our democratic society is very good for gifted/talented people.

I think it is better for gifted/talented people than any alternative anyone has proposed would be if an attempt were made to implement it with real people in the real world.

> Democracy is kinda like 1 human and 10 chimpanzees living together, with the chimpanzees insisting that everybody are equal, and threatening violent sanctions whenever anybody behaves otherwise.

I'm a "gifted/talented" person by most standards (by IQ test scores, PSAT/SAT/LSAT all at the highest reported point in the distribution -- 99 or 99.9 percentile, depending on what the particular test reported at the time -- etc.)

And, frankly, I find it quite likely that anyone who thinks that the relationship between humans and chimpanzees is even a remotely appropriate analogy for the relationship between gifted and talented people at the ~91% percentile and the rest of society is someone who is inclined to behave in a way such that forceful sanctions are appropriate and necessary.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#153
post #5
post #2

Quote: "Reed’s entanglements serve as an apt metaphor for the school life of severely gifted children." Ah, "severely gifted" -- what a meme. What a commentary on the times in which we live. I can imagine psychologists surveying this new frontier with barely concealed joy, in particular now that the DSM is being abandoned. People need to understand that, in modern times, to avoid one or another mental illness diagnos…

The diagnosis criteria for most mental illnesses include that the patient is negatively affected by their specific symptoms. Or regarding the specific quote, in the context of going to a normal school, "severely gifted" might be the right word for describing these children. If these children are given something meaningful to do in school instead, then the moniker would not be apt.

> The diagnosis criteria for most mental illnesses include that the patient is negatively affected by their specific symptoms.

This is a false claim. The only requirement is that a psychologist deem you mentally ill. For example, in the eyes of psychology, Bill Gates, Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, and Thomas Jefferson all are/were mentally ill -- that is, until the imagined malady they were supposed to be suffering from was abandoned because of public outrage.

In the same way and with the same effects, homosexuality was a lucrative mental illness until the public forced psychology to accept that it is not an illness and abandon it.

These are two among dozens of examples in which psychology invents illnesses, then offers bogus cures, all for a fee.

> Or regarding the specific quote, in the context of going to a normal school, "severely gifted" might be the right word for describing these children.

That's absurd. It stigmatizes a gift, an example of nature's occasional generosity. To an adult, the absurdity of this kind of writing and thinking is obvious. But to gifted children, most too inexperienced to understand psychology's real role in society, it constitutes yet another burden in their formative years -- years spent in therapy listening to an intellectually handicapped person exhorting them to try to be more "normal."

> If these children are given something meaningful to do in school instead, then the moniker would not be apt.

I agree with your point, but it's never apt -- it stigmatizes the gifted without recompense. You seem to be missing the point that (a) public schools are notorious for failing the gifted, and (b) this kind of talk only shifts the burden onto the children and away from where it belongs -- on our broken educational system, and on psychology.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#154
post #31
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The diagnosis criteria for most mental illnesses include that the patient is negatively affected by their specific symptoms. Even if this were true (which it isn't) the psychiatrist can always argue that the fact that someone else doesn't like the symptoms negatively affects the patient and therefore he is ill. Circular reasoning like this is common practice.

> Even if this were true (which it isn't) Maybe I was being too general, but the diagnosis criteria I remember from when I've looked at such (including ADHD, Autism spectra disorders, and Depression) have included such qualifiers, IIRC. Checking ASD, the following is one of the criteria: The deficits result in functional limitations in effective communication, social participation, social relationships, academic achi…

> whether or not psychiatrists accurately apply diagnosis criteria is a different matter to arguing that "to avoid one or another mental illness diagnosis, [...] you can't be extraordinary in any way".

But that happens to be true and easily verified. If you're bright, you're assured of the Asperger's diagnosis unless you insist on avoiding the company of psychologists, increasingly difficult in modern times. If you're gay, it was the same thing -- until the public demanded that psychologists stop handing out mental illness diagnoses to gay people.

The history of psychology is punctuated with examples in which obviously appropriate behavior was falsely labeled as evidence of disease, including the infamous example of "drapetomania" -- slaves who ran away from their masters were obviously mentally broken and in need of professional help to reunite them with their owners.

Psychologists don't wait for people to appear and ask for help -- they issue press releases announcing the discovery of yet another imaginary ailment from which many are claimed to be suffering in silence. Example:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mental-wealth/201207/el...

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#155
post #2

Quote: "Reed’s entanglements serve as an apt metaphor for the school life of severely gifted children." Ah, "severely gifted" -- what a meme. What a commentary on the times in which we live. I can imagine psychologists surveying this new frontier with barely concealed joy, in particular now that the DSM is being abandoned. People need to understand that, in modern times, to avoid one or another mental illness diagnos…

A behavioral health diagnosis doesn't mean you're damaged or disabled or even that you're a special snowflake that needs special accommodations. A behavioral health diagnosis, just like any health diagnosis, just recognizes that you have some thing that is negatively impacting you. Just as the diagnosis of an ingrown toenail doesn't mean you need special treatment, neither does a mental health diagnosis.

> Just as the diagnosis of an ingrown toenail doesn't mean you need special treatment, neither does a mental health diagnosis.

Nonsense. Try getting a top security clearance if you have a mental illness diagnosis. Try getting certain kinds of insurance, or preferential treatment in many professions, or any number of other examples in modern society -- a mental illness diagnosis is a burden for a lifetime. The fact that the "illness" may have resulted from a fantasy like recovered memory therapy or be based on a make-believe ailment like Asperger's or homosexuality, doesn't matter -- same burden, same stigma.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#156
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A behavioral health diagnosis doesn't mean you're damaged or disabled or even that you're a special snowflake that needs special accommodations. A behavioral health diagnosis, just like any health diagnosis, just recognizes that you have some thing that is negatively impacting you. Just as the diagnosis of an ingrown toenail doesn't mean you need special treatment, neither does a mental health diagnosis.

> Just as the diagnosis of an ingrown toenail doesn't mean you need special treatment, neither does a mental health diagnosis. Nonsense. Try getting a top security clearance if you have a mental illness diagnosis. Try getting certain kinds of insurance, or preferential treatment in many professions, or any number of other examples in modern society -- a mental illness diagnosis is a burden for a lifetime. The fact th…

GCHQ have made a point of recruiting people with autism spectrum diagnoses.

There's plenty of people with severe mental illness who have security clearances.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#157
post #156
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just as the diagnosis of an ingrown toenail doesn't mean you need special treatment, neither does a mental health diagnosis. Nonsense. Try getting a top security clearance if you have a mental illness diagnosis. Try getting certain kinds of insurance, or preferential treatment in many professions, or any number of other examples in modern society -- a mental illness diagnosis is a burden for a lifetime. The fact th…

GCHQ have made a point of recruiting people with autism spectrum diagnoses. There's plenty of people with severe mental illness who have security clearances.

> There's plenty of people with severe mental illness who have security clearances.

Yes, but only if they lie or waffle in their applications, because mental illness is specifically discussed as a reason to deny clearance.

http://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/security-clearance-jobs...

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#158
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You actually are dismissing the article itself, and the experiences of all the HNers that have experienced what it talks about firsthand. Your phrase "self-proclaimed gifted" is outright dismissive. This is a natural human reaction. The reminder of the existence of people smarter than ourselves often results in narcissistic injury, it feels bad, it can hurt. It's the reason gifted education is such a low and unpopula…

Your comment is exactly the attitude the person you were replying to was mocking. What that person saying is that a lot of reasonably intelligent people who are nowhere near geniuses like to think of themselves as geniuses as a form of narcissistic self-flattery. For people good at math, sciences and computing and other occupations considered "nerdy", capability in these fields and stereotypes of intelligence associa…

Perhaps, but from a utilitarian standpoint, isn't that ultimately a good thing? If we agree that our society needs to improve the way it copes with and nurtures its extraordinarily gifted, then surely a wellspring of sympathy -- even if initially misguided -- from the merely intelligent is a step in the right direction. "Bright normals" tend to occupy the higher echelons of cultural influence in this country, and they certainly represent well in the higher income deciles. I'd argue they are the perfect advocates for those who may, in fact, be unable to advocate for themselves en masse. (Whether through extremely low numbers in the general population, or through being unable to connect on the same level as the gen-pop average.)

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#159
post #47

Ah yes, the monthly link to an article about intelligent/gifted children and the troubles their talents cause them, leading to all the self-proclaimed gifted HNers coming out of the woodwork declaiming "Me too! Me too! Finally someone who understands me!". Not dismissing the article itself, but it's definitely a pattern on HN.

Most people intuitively understand that a person with 25 points lower IQ than the average population is going to have unique problems and go through life in a slightly different path and order than the average. However, for some reason, this is not easily understood regarding people with 25 points over the average. It's also a pattern on HN because it really is a rather new concept. In Sweden, the law that dictates t…

> Most people intuitively understand that a person with 25 points lower IQ than the average population is going to have unique problems and go through life in a slightly different path and order than the average. However, for some reason, this is not easily understood regarding people with 25 points over the average.

"Most people intuitively understand that a person with $25k less income per year than the average population is going to have unique problems and go through life in a slightly different path and order than the average. However, for some reason, this is not easily understood regarding people with $25k over the average."

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#160
post #79

I don't know if I'm gifted (I score 125 at some IQ test on abstraction when applying at a company, but still IQ is not always a correct to measure intelligence, so take this with a grain of salt), but my psychiatrist tells me I'm intelligent (he might say this to agree with me, maybe he doesn't think so and it's for another goal). Yet I'm unemployed, 30 year old, and can't manage to get hired or to do work that is gi…

I'm in similar situation. I finished MA and never really had to work hard for anything. Had IQ at around 130. Probably less now cause I had not done anything challenging for decade. I hate my job, have no achievments whatosever and I balance on doing bare minimum not to get fired. Changed job 4 times and it's definitely me. That's despite the fact that I was always going to be a programmer since I was 10, and I loved…

I'm exactly in the same type of relationship problem, except she is the one working.

I'm currently trying a behavioral cognitive therapy, so far it's working a little better than whatever else I tried with psychiatrists.

What is making me hold to life, is to try to do some stuff I know how to do: programming, etc at a minimal pace and scale (I have this small video game project I'm trying to do). Even though it won't solve my problems (or at least immediately), I still believe in what I do or can do, and it prevents me from giving up everything.

If you have skills and like to do certain things or if you are attracted to certain things, go do them, it's not a waste of your time, even if the task seems daunting or hard. In a way, you can reason it as being some kind of possible contribution to society, and for me that's how I maintain a minimal amount of self-esteem.

Post reply on HN