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Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

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Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#31

Post by themartorana »

bdisraeli wrote: post #9
pjc50 wrote: post #8

Until police are jailed for this, nothing will improve. What's the US equivalent of the Independent Police Complaints Commission?

There is no national body that oversees police, but Chicago has the Independent Police Review Authority. However IPRA rarely upholds complaints against police (it's staffed by ex-cops and other people connected to the police), and recently an investigator was fired after finding a shooting unjustified[1]. [1] http://www.wbez.org/news/city-fires-investigator-who-found-c...

"Since its 2007 creation, IPRA has investigated nearly 400 civilian shootings by police and found one to be unjustified."

Alrighty, then...

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#32

Post by moron4hire »

CPLX wrote: post #24
s_q_b wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not intelligent enough to know that law enforcement interactions with the public are recorded on dashcams, maybe you shouldn't go into police work...

But that's part of my point. When most cops became cops that wasn't the case at all.

When did most cops become cops? Shortly after discharging from the military. Amped up on PTSD and adrenaline addiction. Yeah, I want a camera on them every second of the day, whether they are on duty or off duty. The mentally ill should not have guns. We've had a steady drum beat that "common sense gun control" should include a psychological test. I don't think most cops coming into the job straight out of the military would be able to pass the same test proposed for civilians.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#33

Post by danso »

CPLX wrote: post #21

Though I agree that this behavior is reprehensible and probably criminal, the comments here seem to miss at least some of the human dynamic here. I can't hardly imagine that most people posting here would ever consider a job where literally every word or sound that came out of their mouth during their entire working life was recorded, and likely subject to public disclosure. Saying that this is what cops signed up fo…

Most cops don't sign up to do what they end up doing. Having been on a few ride-alongs, and knowing a few cops personally, my impression is that the job is much more paperwork than it is actively saving the community from the bad guys. I'm not belittling the importance of paperwork, mind you, it's just that cop work, just like every other kind of work, is not like TV.

These reforms don't happen overnight. The city council, the police chief, the mayor, the police union, the prosecutor's office, the governor -- they've debated and discussed dashcams for a long period of time, because it's not just about policy, but also effectively implementing it, with all the speed that most government contractor work happens at. These reforms didn't happen at a speed at which even the old cops were blindsided at. They had plenty of time to consider a new career without resorting to criminal obstruction of justice out of petulance.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#34

Post by ceejayoz »

moron4hire wrote: post #14

How long before people start defending them, "It's just a few bad apples"? And I won't hold my breath waiting for them to remember the full phase is "a few bad apples spoils the barrel."

The "it's just a few bad apples" excuse is especially egregious, as bad apples need to be disposed with rapidly before they rot the rest of the batch.

Farmers who encounter a bad apple don't shrug and say "eh, there'll always be bad apples, nothing we can do". It's really weird how what should be a saying supporting police reform got twisted into something promoting indifference to abuse.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#35

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

ghufran_syed wrote: post #22
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I argued elsewhere here, I believe a stronger incentive would be to come after pay and pensions for police units whose officers have cost the municipality millions in lawsuits. Instead of friends and coworkers trying to protect each other for abuses of power, they will instead take on the role of protecting their families' livelihood. You would be less likely to abuse your authority if your entire department and t…

awesome idea, kind of similar to the idea that financial market firms were much more prudent when they were partnerships, whose top members had most of their self-worth tied up in that company. Once outside shareholders owned the stock, it made it much more sensible to make big bets, if you win you get a huge bonus, if not, they cant take away all the money you made in previous years.

Glad you agree. I think there are plenty of good suggestions for police reform, but I can see how things like body cameras can descend into messy micromanagement (what's a minimum uptime? What are the penalties? What about mistakes?).

Make bad behavior a huge disincentive and police departments will largely sort themselves out. If they are empowered to make their own decisions as to how to do so, they will be more willing to adapt. At the moment there is huge pushback from the public about police abuse, and cops are understandably frustrated by a public - that doesn't go into harm's way on a daily basis - trying to tell them how to do their jobs.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#36

Post by doobiedowner »

elthran wrote: post #16
bdisraeli wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no national body that oversees police, but Chicago has the Independent Police Review Authority. However IPRA rarely upholds complaints against police (it's staffed by ex-cops and other people connected to the police), and recently an investigator was fired after finding a shooting unjustified[1]. [1] http://www.wbez.org/news/city-fires-investigator-who-found-c...

Has this been proposed at all? Is there anything weird about american policing/law that would mean a national, federal agency wouldn't be able to take on this role?

"The reality is that we do not wash our own laundry - it just gets dirtier. "

- Serpico

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#37

Post by ams6110 »

Shivetya wrote: post #2

I do not understand how these cannot be made idiot proof and cop proof. You can buy the simplest dash cams from China that record HD video and sound that take mere minutes to set up for under a hundred bucks. The first step needs to mandate a tamper proof system and disabling of any police car from leaving they yard unless the device passes on all tests. Then it should be required to report periodically to a central…

I'm sorry but this is hoplessly naive. It's Chicago. One of the most historically corrupt machine governments in the USA. Nothing gets done without dozens of people getting paid off if not in cash than in favors or quid pro quo. It's not even something that people on the inside find unusual. It's just how it is, and always has been.

It's a much bigger problem than just mandating tamper-proof cameras.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#38

Post by yourapostasy »

ghufran_syed wrote: post #17
pjc50 wrote: post #8

Until police are jailed for this, nothing will improve. What's the US equivalent of the Independent Police Complaints Commission?

Part of what stops police from routinely infringing civil rights in the pursuit of justice is the legal doctrine that evidence obtained illegally is inadmissible, as is all evidence gained from further (lawful) investigation based on that evidence [1]. what is needed is a law that operates in a similar way, that states that in any lawsuit or complaint against the police, there is a presumption of guilt on the part of…

> ...or at least in the interests of the city that would regularly have to pay out presumptive damages...

Key challenge with this strategy is the big latency between paying out damages and consequences for the police officer or even department. The bigger the metro, the bigger the latency. Large metro budgets can temporarily cover for the few million dollar payouts that happen to make the daunting gauntlet all the way through to a final, no-appeal judicial judgement, even a few every 3-5 years over a long, long period of time. There is a natural impedance in metro political circles to "protect" the police unless an incident is sufficiently egregious.

I'm believe this adverse behavior pattern won't stop until a legal concept similar to the corporate veil is established for police officers (all the way up to and including police chiefs). Some kind of legal doctrine that spells out when certain conditions are met, individual officers must be deprived of city and departmental support; their "blue veil" so to speak is "pierced". They can still obtain support from private sources like the union, but they are on as much the same footing as a civilian as can be legally established. As a society we can hash out what those conditions are. Some might argue just destroyed dashcam data is sufficient. Others might argue for a much, much higher bar.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#39

Post by ams6110 »

moomin wrote: post #12

Just to be clear: what we are looking at is a concerted and coordinated criminal conspiracy to cover up a range of activities including murder.

a concerted and coordinated criminal conspiracy

Yes. It's Chicago. You've just described city government in six words.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#40

Post by ozborn »

CPLX wrote: post #21

Though I agree that this behavior is reprehensible and probably criminal, the comments here seem to miss at least some of the human dynamic here. I can't hardly imagine that most people posting here would ever consider a job where literally every word or sound that came out of their mouth during their entire working life was recorded, and likely subject to public disclosure. Saying that this is what cops signed up fo…

"I can't hardly imagine that most people posting here would ever consider a job where literally every word or sound that came out of their mouth during their entire working life was recorded, and likely subject to public disclosure."

It's becoming more common - professional atheletes and politicans fit into this category, even many day care workers who are paid even less than cops. I'm sure others can think of additional professions.

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