Request For Research: Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#411

Post by taurath » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:12 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #384

larsiusprime wrote: post #32

What I want to know is whether Basic Income implemented with our current housing and laws about land ownership will just run afoul of the Henry George Theorem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem IE, the aggregate value of public spending in an area tends to soak into the land value -- give everybody $X,000 a year and the landlords will dutifully raise annual rents by $X,000.

I think it will. To avoid it, a significant portion of Basic Income would have to be paid out as goods and services vouchers with redemption limits. Rather than getting $50 a day as cash, you might get 4 nutritionally balanced but generally unpalatable meal rations, two payment vouchers for one day in one state-owned 250 sq.ft. housing capsule, 30 kWh of metered electricity, 100 gallons of potable water, 10 Gb of net…

If the basic tenants and studies that have called basic income into the forefront are to be believed (and the actual spectre of central state control that people are afraid of in some circumstances is real, and it is), the best way to benefit people in need is to give them cash. Most of the time, people spend it on things they need. If they don't, they are either suffering from a mental or addiction issue and need treatment, or they made mistakes and its their own damn fault, and nobody needs to pity them.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#412

Post by robertbenjamin » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #5

There's a very relevant section in this book ( The Second Machine Age: Work, Progress, and Prosperity in a Time of Brilliant Technologies - http://amzn.to/1KFJ1Iu ) , that I just read last night: > "His view is strongly supported by the work of economist Andrew Oswald, who found that joblessness lasting six months or longer harms feelings of well-being and other measures of mental health about as much as the death of…

This is a huge component that should be considered when arguing for / against basic income. Does this lack of self worth stem from actually not having a job? Or simply not putting quality time into something valuable? Did they study people who found other ways to spend their time on something productive and interesting, like volunteering or learning a hobby? Did they measure people who were jobless by choice?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#413

Post by clavalle » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #120

The problem with basic income is that people need purpose, not charity. Look at the success of programs in Africa that give people the ability to make a living, not a bag of rice. One particularly moving story was about a group that got foot-powered water pumps into the hands of subsistence farmers, who subsequently were able to send their kids to school. At one point, the core purpose of monetary policy and central…

> The problem with basic income is that people need purpose, not charity.

> I think we need to figure out how to empower people.

I don't think anything you've said is incompatible with something like basic income.

What could be more empowering than knowing your basic needs will be taken care of? From that position of strength you can negotiate with others based on mutual benefit rather than avoiding the consequences of not meeting your basic needs for survival. You must be enticed into a transaction rather than coerced no matter how circumspect that coercion.

If people needed to be forced to add value to the world through the threat of starvation or homelessness HN wouldn't exist. Why would people with means continue transacting? I don't believe the poor are much different, they will nurture their potential and provide what they can to the world because the trade leaves them better off.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#414

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #72

harryh wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Since you brought it up I can provide those numbers too: Total US population ~= 319M Under 18 population ~= 73M Over 65 population ~= 46M --------------------------- Remainder ~= 200M No data on volunteering not to receive, though I don't know many people who pay more taxes than they're required to so I'm guessing that number would be pretty small.

So $2T not $3.2T. When compared to social security, it's not that bad: > In 2015, over 59 million Americans will receive almost $870 billion in Social Security benefits. Therefore basic income would be about 2.3x the cost of social security but 3.4x as many people would benefit.

I think that social security is the wrong thing to compare it to. Try social security + unemployment + food stamps + aid to families with dependent children + ...

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#415

Post by cwe » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

overcast wrote: post #162

TrevorJ wrote: post #17

I wonder what basic income would do to cost of living? If everyone ends up with x amount of guaranteed income, does the cost of living eventually rise by the same amount across the board and basically negate it? It seems like rent-seeking behavior would come in to play here.

Of course it does, it's the same thing with minimum wage increases. When businesses have to pay all of their employees more, that just doesn't come out of their pockets. Price increases across the board are passed down to customers.

But businesses won't have to pay employees more. If anything, they can pay less because the UBI covers it. See @simonh's comment [0] to parent.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10982605

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#416

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#417

Post by wiz21 » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:14 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #170

Things that would help everyone, regardless of income, without depending on a radical restructuring of entitlement spending, that seem like things startups could actually do: * Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. * Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based tur…

and of course, a little bit of taxes to redistribute YCombinator money made from startups-that-don't-help-people-to-eat to those people who'd be relieved by basic income

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#418

Post by Mz » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:15 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #120

The problem with basic income is that people need purpose, not charity. Look at the success of programs in Africa that give people the ability to make a living, not a bag of rice. One particularly moving story was about a group that got foot-powered water pumps into the hands of subsistence farmers, who subsequently were able to send their kids to school. At one point, the core purpose of monetary policy and central…

I agree with you. You might appreciate some of my recent blog posts:

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/01/ubi-we-tried...

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-conversa...

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#419

Post by pasbesoin » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:15 PM UTC

Here is a basic sub-piece, that I think is a cornerstone:

"Basic" (i.e. guaranteed, for non-esoteric treatments) health care.

My personal experience has profoundly introduced me to the principle that the rest of my well-being and performance is founded upon my health.

If basic income is too difficult or determined to be counter-productive, what about this?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#420

Post by jdreaver » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

mikeyouse wrote: post #403

stcredzero wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. Why not just free university education for people who have the prerequisite academic qualifications?

Yes. Everyone bemoans the increasing in tuition and increase in admin staff.. these things are intimately tied. The cost of education on a per-student basis hasn't increased very much in the US. Most of the cost burden has just shifted from taxpayers to students (for better or worse). Much of the admin staff is necessary to handle all of the financial aid, grant applications, etc. Simply providing tuition-free educat…

Much of the increase in admin staff and university spending has come from all of that free government aid money we keep giving them. If we make tuition "free" for everyone, then universities will get a bottomless pit of money to spend on useless things. They will be almost totally divorced from the incentive to keep costs low. Right now, universities don't compete for funds on the basis of the quality of education. They compete on a political basis to collect as much money from the government as they possibly can.

We didn't have a problem paying for college in the US until everyone decided that the government should help pay for it. Throwing more money at the problem won't fix it; in fact, it's been a huge part of the problem!