Request For Research: Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#381

Post by jl6 » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:02 PM UTC

The 5 year period of this study will be a significant limitation. An important part of a guaranteed basic income is the guarantee. If I was in a programme that I knew would end after 5 years, I would be very concerned with things like maintaining my employability when the 5 years are up. In other words, while I would love to dedicate 5 years to non-commercial art and science, my option to do this is severely curtailed if I'm expected to re-enter the same old job market with 5 years less experience than my peers.

But overall I am thoroughly supportive of doing the experiment anyway, as we do desperately need more data on this important concept.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#382

Post by RankingMember » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:03 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #187

RankingMember wrote: post #118

I'm curious to see how Finland's basic income system turns out. I think doing so would drop the omnipresent fear of being destitute and homeless, which would do a lot to improve mental health.

Finland already has a quite thorough social welfare system - no-one is homeless unless they have a bag of other problems than a lack of income. Mental health - not so good. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide... You will notice Finland has way more suicides than US.

I think having a basic income would do more than ensure people have a place to live, as the social welfare system you mentioned gives them; it'd guarantee a minimum of dignity. People in homeless housing/shelters are certainly better off than in the streets, but, imagining myself in their position, I think I'd still feel like an outcast, out of step with the rest of society. If there was a way to give people a base level of dignity directly, that'd be the way to go, but I think basic income is an interesting avenue to try to do this.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#383

Post by bzbarsky » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:03 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #150

notliketherest wrote: post #13

When I talk with people about basic income, my gut reaction and primary argument is that it contrasts with that fundamental human nature that's been show time and again throughout humanity - given a guaranteed, fixed reward no matter how much or how little you work for it, disincentivizes work. It follows along the same lines as why government instituted communism fails. Or why the first version of the mayflower comp…

>disincentivizes work Why is this a problem? The market allocates work, the market has decided that a large and growing number of people's work is worth $0, the market is still producing enough to keep everyone happy and fed. Why should someone be incentivized to work when their work has no value? Put another way, we have made an amazing collective achievement: 100% effort from 100% of people is no longer necessary o…

> the market has decided that a large and growing number of people's work is worth $0

Or rather is worth less than the legal minimum wage, which is not the same thing.

> Why should someone be incentivized to work when their work has no value?

Very few people's work has no value, especially if they're allowed to do what they like to do. Typically the problems arise when the value is lower than the costs involved (salary, ovehead of managing them, etc).

Reducing such costs should be a pretty important part of a basic income setup.

> coerced labor (yes, starvation and homelessness due to unemployment are coercion) is no longer necessary

The interesting question is what the end game is here. If we get to a situation where 100% effort from 100% of people is no longer necessary, but 100% effort from _some_ people is still necessary, how do you ensure that the people who still need to work keep doing so? And how will those people feel about it and what will the try to do as a result? A worst-case-ish scenario that seems all too likely is bans on emigration of "productive citizens" (defined as the ones whose 100%, or even 80%, effort is in fact still needed) who would otherwise decamp for other countries with lower taxes.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#384

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:03 PM UTC

larsiusprime wrote: post #32

What I want to know is whether Basic Income implemented with our current housing and laws about land ownership will just run afoul of the Henry George Theorem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem IE, the aggregate value of public spending in an area tends to soak into the land value -- give everybody $X,000 a year and the landlords will dutifully raise annual rents by $X,000.

I think it will. To avoid it, a significant portion of Basic Income would have to be paid out as goods and services vouchers with redemption limits.

Rather than getting $50 a day as cash, you might get 4 nutritionally balanced but generally unpalatable meal rations, two payment vouchers for one day in one state-owned 250 sq.ft. housing capsule, 30 kWh of metered electricity, 100 gallons of potable water, 10 Gb of network bandwidth, etc. But you put redemption limits in place so that you can't use vouchers to pay for more than 1000 sq.ft. of capsules, 60 kWh of electricity, 200 gallons of water, or 20 Gb of electricity per day. It places limits on the amount of benefit any single person could suck out of the system at the expense of everyone else in it.

The state would also have to be a major wholesale buyer for those things, and sometimes also set up and spin off new competitive suppliers, otherwise the incumbent suppliers might be able to jack up the price and capture a portion of the benefits intended for the end consumer. Taxes and subsidies have a different mechanism of action economically than the entry of a new supplier firm.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#385

Post by clavalle » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:03 PM UTC

Riseed wrote: post #287

ryandrake wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any evidence that shows that Basic Income (that you DON'T lose if you happen to find work, as in the USA system) will cause people to sit around idle?

Not "idle" exactly, but in the Canadian Mincome experiment, teenagers and new parents decreased work hours (to focus on studies and childcare, respectively). http://public.econ.duke.edu/~erw/197/forget-cea%20(2).pdf

So, they ended up not selling their time for less than it was worth in order to survive and, instead, added value to their lives.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#386

Post by samstave » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:04 PM UTC

thenipper wrote: post #317

tptacek wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was hard for me and Erin to do 7 years ago (our kids are teenagers now), and we're economically very fortunate. I can't imagine how hard it must be for people trying to provide for families on $15/hr to manage child care.

I've had friends who are reasonably well off compared to the rest of the country and in doing the math realized it was just easier for one parent to stay home for X years raising the children. Of course then they are out of the workforce and 'unhirable' when they try to re-enter it.

This is precisely the case with me and my spouse.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#387

Post by avip » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:04 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #269

avip wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a more trivial alternative to "equally credible alternatives to university" - just ban education based discrimination. Same way US so nicely enforces regarding race or martial status. Make it illegal to ask. Simple change with 100% guaranteed positive outcome.

Whether I agree or not with this (mostly, I don't), it fails my test of "being something a startup can do". Whereas a startup that had a really good solution for inculcating the kinds of skills and values white-collar employers are looking for could outcompete universities instead of legislating them out of the picture. When people discuss the value signaling provided by elite universities, their first example is usu…

Agreed.

Though sometimes we're trying to tech-fix things which are broken on a whole different level. Education is effectively free today. You pay to get the certificate. I think that's a broken system.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#388

Post by ASinclair » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:04 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #371

> What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone? Gamify budgeting. I'm on a low income (UK sort-of disability benefits) and I've got a budget set up, but I don't set aside anything. I should, and I should be able to. I'm more than happy to describe my experiences of claiming "employment and support allowance (work related activity group)" (and the transition from Incapacity benefit to ESA-WRAG; and the dif…

YNAB gamified my budgeting in a sense. I've found it keeps me motivated. Though their new web app needs some work.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#389

Post by taurath » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:04 PM UTC

firloop wrote: post #234

avip wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a more trivial alternative to "equally credible alternatives to university" - just ban education based discrimination. Same way US so nicely enforces regarding race or martial status. Make it illegal to ask. Simple change with 100% guaranteed positive outcome.

I disagree. While college is becoming less of an important step for many careers, education, especially post-graduate, is vital for many others. For example, if I were a large tech company hiring physicists for R&D, I really don't think it's unfair to expect some sort of post-grad education, nor do I think these instances really contribute to any sort of problem right now.

Physics is a field that is almost entirely taught within the traditional college system and probably would get less of a benefit than other fields. The problem is the college system is so expensive that those who COULD become physicists aren't because of economic reasons, and those who want to more than anything are being saddled with debt and a lot more burden which probably doesn't help them advance the field.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#390

Post by soperj » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:05 PM UTC

jdmichal wrote: post #52

TrevorJ wrote: post #17

I wonder what basic income would do to cost of living? If everyone ends up with x amount of guaranteed income, does the cost of living eventually rise by the same amount across the board and basically negate it? It seems like rent-seeking behavior would come in to play here.

I often have the same inclination of thought with regards to university education and government-guaranteed student loans. If I'm a university executive, and I know that the average student can afford $X, and I know the average student can also receive a guaranteed $Y in student loans... Why would I not set my price at $(X+Y) and take the full rent that I can?

Only works if every university does the same thing.