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What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

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Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#151

Post by acdha »

mbrutsch wrote: post #98
acdha wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should spend less time condemning other people and more time reading what they wrote. It's great that your mother felt confident standing up to abuse. Not everyone does — and someone early in their career, knowing that their entire life trajectory can be affected by their boss's reviews and networking, is going to feel different than, say, an established figure in the field or a worker at a union shop who can exp…

> You should spend less time condemning other people and more time reading what they wrote. You could spend less time assuming I didn't read everything. The attitude of "saying she should stand up for herself, at least once, before going to HR" is hardly "condemning".

Your comments have been consistently dismissive and peppered with the vocabulary to match: referring to whingers, scare quoting “victims” or using phrases like "culture of victimhood”, tossing in snide references to Tumblr, etc.

Again, it's great that your mother was able to successfully break a barrier. That doesn't mean everyone will also have success as easily using the same approach or that it's ever reasonable to dismiss someone else's life experience because you think they should have been more confrontational despite knowing so little about her situation and the power dynamics involved.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#152

Post by hluska »

isnullorempty wrote: post #131
hluska wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, that is bullshit. Simply, don't go out of your way to be an asshole. Genuine compliments are fine. Leering is wrong. Sexually suggestive comments or winks in emails are wrong. Don't treat anyone as a lesser form of life. This is so fucking simple and it makes for a better work environment for all.

So what are you supposed to do if you are attracted to someone at work, never make a move? Women need to be more forgiving and take it as a compliment, unless someone continues after a clear rejection (which is the definition of harassment).

First, I have been in work relationships and they aren't all they are cracked up to be. They make coworkers uncomfortable and create all sorts of weird situations that my little monkey brain can't process. Unless you are very very strict about boundaries (ie - from 8-5 we are at work, we only work, and outside of those hours we are only in a relationship and we don't talk about work), these relationships are a minefield.

Seriously, if they go bad, they go very bad. If they work, they can be great. But please be careful!

That aside, it depends on your relative levels and how closely you work together.

1. If you are a manager who is attracted to one of your reports, it is never acceptable to flirt. If you can't resist, quit your job first.

2. If you are attracted to your manager, be very very careful. He or she may worry that they have harassed you and that kind of worry makes any sort of positive resolution very difficult. There's a good chance that one of you will end up transferred to a totally unrelated team. If you like your job, it isn't worth taking this kind of a crapshoot.

3. If you are at the same level, ask yourself if you are mature enough to maintain a good working relationship if he or she rejects you. Then, take some time to think over the worst case scenarios. How will you react if you two date for a year, you are madly in love and he or she breaks up with you?? Will you let that boil over into your work world?? What if there is infidelity? What will you talk about outside of work?? If you only have work in common, tread lightly - one of you will move up or out. Then what?? What happens if he or she gets promoted? Will you feel jealous or proud?? Once you have thought carefully about those things, tell him or her how you feel (preferably outside of work hours) and ask him or her out. If the date goes well and you want to go on another date, tell your manager quickly. If the date goes horribly, be cool and don't let it change the working relationship.

Also, for the love of whatever you consider holy. If all goes well, don't do any of that cute dating bullshit at work!! Don't hold hands. Don't call each other pet names. Don't get caught making out in the supply closet!!! :)

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#153

Post by zupreme »

I'm not so sure about this one.

I think sexual harassment and direct flirtation can become confused depending on the perspective of the recipient.

Men have been making advances toward women throughout history and, perhaps to a lesser extent, women do the same toward men.

Far more workplace flings happen than any company (and even many employees) will admit and it often starts with one party or the other making their desires known to the other party. I've also been part of and present for many very graphic conversations in the workplace involving both sexes and none of these, to my knowledge, were never seen as harassment or reported as such.

In reading the linked article the one thing I don't see is where she told the manager "No. I'm not interested. Leave me alone." Perhaps if she had simply been as direct with him as he was being with her, the entire HR fiasco could have been avoided.

It's telling that the female colleague felt that she was overreacting. At no point in the article does she mention the manager touching her inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation depended on her accepting his advances.

This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted to a colleague, made steadily increasing verbal advances (which were not rebuffed), and then got blindsided by HR.

I'm sure this won't be a popular view here but I think it's valid.

Edit: Replaced "HR Worker" with "Colleague". As some responders pointed out it was not the HR person who told her she was overreacting (thanks for the corrections).

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#154

Post by y04nn »

fsloth wrote: post #146
y04nn wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like she is lacking self confidence, personality. Is she living in a fantasy world where everybody is kind? I was not here, so I don't want to juge, but she has only been asked to sit on ones lap, she could have strongly refuse and asked why she would do that in the first place. She should have shown strong signs of rejection, express the fact that is make her uncomfortable and asked him to stop. If he does no…

"she has only been asked to sit on ones lap" In civil society, the expected standard is not that everyone is socially and martially capable and with a razor sharp wit. Unexpected things like these generally make people flustered and confused. If a person has not faced a situation like this before, it can be very hard to come by with a proper response. The situation is similar to being mugged, or tricked out of money.…

Yes, she may have not been confronted to such situation. She was new to grown up world. But such things happen generally during your education. And he may have misinterpreted her behavior.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#155

Post by auggierose »

She admits in that piece that she shouldn't have laughed at jokes that made her uncomfortable. So I suggest people/women keep themselves out of situations like this by being honest and upfront with their colleagues in the first place. If that doesn't work, go to HR. Simple as that.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#156

Post by yodsanklai »

plasticxme wrote: post #121
y04nn wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like she is lacking self confidence, personality. Is she living in a fantasy world where everybody is kind? I was not here, so I don't want to juge, but she has only been asked to sit on ones lap, she could have strongly refuse and asked why she would do that in the first place. She should have shown strong signs of rejection, express the fact that is make her uncomfortable and asked him to stop. If he does no…

What!? First, it is highly inappropriate for anyone in any leadership or management position to ask anyone to sit on there lap, no matter what their relationship status. Secondly, making any kind of sexual proposition or advance in the office on someone you are not in a relationship with is sexual harassment. If you are in a relationship, it's inappropriate and a conflict of interest.

> Secondly, making any kind of sexual proposition or advance in the office on someone you are not in a relationship with is sexual harassment

Actually, I believe it's not. Only if the proposition is unwelcome it is unlawful.

So if this guy hasn't been fired, it's likely that the investigation concluded it wasn't a case of sexual harassment.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#157

Post by thedz »

4k wrote: post #140
qb45 wrote: post #4

> In the span of a week, I went from feeling excited and motivated about my job to feeling lethargic, anxious, and unenthused. (...) I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility (...) There exists a breed of narcissists who are so incapable of tolerating rejection that they will consistently ignore every sign of it. In fact, the less you are satisfied with…

I am member of a minority, and have had more than one chance to go to the HR to report "being racially abused" and present the narrative in such a way that anyone would be convinced it was horrible. Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop…

> Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop here, instead goes to HR. I mean just in plain words "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases.

1. Your implicit dismissal of her as a victim by using quotes is, frankly, a pretty large part of the reason why women feel so frustrated in tech. Here you are, a third party to this situation, automatically assuming that she's somehow someone who is purposely trying to take advantage of a situation.

2. Why is it the woman's responsibility to tell her male manager that it's inappropriate to ask her to sit on his lap? I mean, c'mon. I'll ask a coworker to stop if he's playing his music too loudly, but this is hardly in the same league. Plus, he's in a position of power over her, as her manager.

3. This situation is _precisely_ why there's an HR department.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#158

Post by kelvin0 »

marincounty wrote: post #106
cmdkeen wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again there's a specific issue about power imbalances. A colleague says some things you don't like it is quite easy to ask them to refrain. With a manager that may not be the case, especially if you're new to the world of work. Managing people is a responsibility and you can't act like people you have power over are just your colleagues. Perhaps in time if you build up a close working relationship with people you can…

Read my paragraph one? "The big difference is these women had no power over my career."

I think your comment is thoughtful and relates to your experience. Once again, I can't understand why it is downvoted... HN quirks, that's what I call it.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#159

Post by daveguy »

4k wrote: post #140
qb45 wrote: post #4

> In the span of a week, I went from feeling excited and motivated about my job to feeling lethargic, anxious, and unenthused. (...) I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility (...) There exists a breed of narcissists who are so incapable of tolerating rejection that they will consistently ignore every sign of it. In fact, the less you are satisfied with…

I am member of a minority, and have had more than one chance to go to the HR to report "being racially abused" and present the narrative in such a way that anyone would be convinced it was horrible. Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop…

Trying to get a coworker to sit on your lap and telling her about your sexual prowess is 100%, no room for uncertaintainty, sexual harassment. I'm not sure what minority you hail from, but if the environment you were raised in considers that "not sexual harassment" then you need to learn from this story and adjust your behavior appropriately to make sure you aren't sexually harassing in your workplace.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#160

Post by nikcub »

Alex3917 wrote: post #102
nikcub wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.N, amongst almost everyone else, defines an unwanted sexual advance as sexual harassment: http://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf

No it doesn't, they use basically the same definition as the U.S. Read the link...

I did:

> The EEOC has defined sexual harassment in its guidelines as:

> Unwelcome sexual advances ..

> Such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment

It's right in the first two lines - what am I missing?

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