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What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

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Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#141

Post by fche »

Ntrails wrote: post #59
mbrutsch wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit ou…

See - this is interesting. There is definitely a sense that in "ye olden days" people were stauncher. There's a bit of application of so called common sense where a lot of behaviours can be shut down by addressing them. Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive, and not being able to protect themself from something that they should never have to deal with - it's…

"you just blamed the victim"

That phrase has lost meaning. Listing things the victim could have done differently or better is nothing but exploration of the causal chain. Blame in any logical or legal sense accrues only to a proximate-cause rule-violator kind of party.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#142

Post by hluska »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #47
eklavya wrote: post #29

Why does nobody seem to be bothered with the apologize and continue as usual outcome? Shouldn't there have been serious implications for the sexual offender?

I have to write this comment pretty carefully to avoid vindicating the offender or blaming the victim. It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable (this is not her fault), and perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there. The situation needed to be fixed, but the behaviour mentioned in the article could have been more flirtatious than forced. A zero tolerance…

Okay, let me make this clear.

Under absolutely no circumstances is it even remotely appropriate for a manager to flirt with any direct reports. It is always 100% wrong and there is never any room for this type of bullshit.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#143

Post by yodsanklai »

Is the term "sexual harassement" appropriate here?

It'd be interesting to hear the manager point of view on this issue. We have only one side of the story here. Maybe the manager genuinely thought this was a case of mutual flirting there.

Or flirting in the workplace = sexual harassment?

EDIT: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+harassm...

"A key part of the definition is the use of the word unwelcome. Unwelcome or uninvited conduct or communication of a sexual nature is prohibited; welcome or invited actions or words are not unlawful."

"The courts have generally concluded that a victim need not say or do a particular thing to indicate unwelcomeness. Instead, a court will review all of the circumstances to determine whether it was reasonably clear to the harasser that the conduct was unwelcome. "

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#144

Post by mgbmtl »

throwaway19245 wrote: post #74

I'd like to preface this comment by saying I'm not confident in my opinion, and I'm very open to discussion and to changing my stance. My understanding is that the manager's actions would likely be considered low level harassment, tipping towards misconduct considering the short duration (1 week) and minimal resolution attempts outside of HR. Definitions are hard for this subject, but my understanding is the phrase e…

I understand your point of view, but I feel like we often underestimate the level of harm that some types of misconduct can cause. A workplace should never tolerate any type of harassment (and few workplaces do).

It's not just the act itself, it's also the act in the current historical context (institutional inequality) and work context (workplace power inequality).

Unfortunately the effects on OP are probably much bigger than we expect because of the way we are socialized, our culture, etc. Some might say that it's not the guy's fault that our society is so imbalanced, but I think we should be more conscious about this in general. To prevent the self-confidence issue, we could probably fix our education and general culture, but in the short term we could just not harass women at work. That's a pretty easy short term solution :)

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#145

Post by js8 »

EliRivers wrote: post #48
mbrutsch wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit ou…

When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. Good for her. What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her. It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves, but you should be careful th…

> It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves

It also may be that people today don't want to stand up for themselves because they risk that the other party will play victim. There is this other comment which says that if she punched him, she would risk an assault accusation.

Maybe it's the whole "somebody has to be a victim" mentality? Maybe it's lot less clear cut in most cases.

I have to say, I would much prefer women to simply slap the men who do these uncomfortable things. I don't see anything wrong with it. Now if this would escalate afterwards, perhaps then should courts (or other institutions) be involved.

> you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim

I don't agree, the people who think that are the ones making an error, and we shouldn't accommodate them.

How can we have an honest discussion about what is moral and what not, if we have the need to blame somebody? The blame can only come after it is decided what action is immoral, and understanding circumstances. Assigning who is a victim in advance prevents this understanding.

> It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims

I don't think he does, it's the faulty reasoning of yours (as you say in the previous sentence) that leads to conclusion that there is always 100% victim and 100% perpetrator.

> the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time

I agree, that is very much true. But there is also other side of the coin, people (of both sexes!) are taking risks to get good sexual partners, it's just human nature. Ignoring the fact that people sometimes risk (and it fails!) in the interest of declaring somebody a victim does no good either.

I mean, even if you move the boundary of what is acceptable in society (in either direction), there will always be people who will risk to cross the boundary, because that risk pays off. So I am not sure what is bigger involvement of institutions in these matters going to resolve.

It's one of the blind spots of left and feminism (I am leftist), we don't want to hear about people who do take risks (because it's slightly irrational, after all), because our ideology cannot deal with them in any meaningful way.

And personally, I see the mere existence of bosses (and human social hierarchies in general) as a bigger problem, of which sexual harassment is only a symptom.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#146

Post by fsloth »

y04nn wrote: post #84
zzleeper wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that often you might not be entirely sure about what's going on. In her case, the kiss in the cheek might just be cultural confusion (in Spanish-speaking countries we do that even with strangers). Of course, after the lap thing... I don't even have words... How can you treat other people like that.. you are put in a position of power/responsibility and they use it to degrade others..

I feel like she is lacking self confidence, personality. Is she living in a fantasy world where everybody is kind? I was not here, so I don't want to juge, but she has only been asked to sit on ones lap, she could have strongly refuse and asked why she would do that in the first place. She should have shown strong signs of rejection, express the fact that is make her uncomfortable and asked him to stop. If he does no…

"she has only been asked to sit on ones lap"

In civil society, the expected standard is not that everyone is socially and martially capable and with a razor sharp wit. Unexpected things like these generally make people flustered and confused. If a person has not faced a situation like this before, it can be very hard to come by with a proper response.

The situation is similar to being mugged, or tricked out of money. In general, the common fraud techniques work because people are not overly concerned becoming conned, and the approaches are such they work the first time because they play on the automatic responses peoples have to a situation.

Only after the fact becoming mugged people generally go through a behavioural analysis of how to recognize bad situations and how to get away from them.

In a sexual harassment situation, the initial slow response may be interpreted as a positive sign (and may erode the confidence of the assaulted party).

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#147

Post by y04nn »

hluska wrote: post #128
y04nn wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like she is lacking self confidence, personality. Is she living in a fantasy world where everybody is kind? I was not here, so I don't want to juge, but she has only been asked to sit on ones lap, she could have strongly refuse and asked why she would do that in the first place. She should have shown strong signs of rejection, express the fact that is make her uncomfortable and asked him to stop. If he does no…

You feel like she is lacking self confidence??? That is just about the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Her manager (aka 'someone with a disproportionate amount of control over her career') asked her to sit on his lap, talked about how 'everyone' has an Asian fetish at some point, and asked her out for dinner alone. She tolerated it up to a point and then went to HR. How in any possible sense of the term can t…

I'm trying to understand the behavior of the manager, there must be a rational explanation. He knew what it can lead him to. So for me, it may be that he was sexually attracted to her and she may not have shown enough rejection signs (cultural bias between the 2?). Also I may point that for me the only person in charge for my carrer is me, whatever is my position.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#148

Post by eklavya »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #47
eklavya wrote: post #29

Why does nobody seem to be bothered with the apologize and continue as usual outcome? Shouldn't there have been serious implications for the sexual offender?

I have to write this comment pretty carefully to avoid vindicating the offender or blaming the victim. It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable (this is not her fault), and perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there. The situation needed to be fixed, but the behaviour mentioned in the article could have been more flirtatious than forced. A zero tolerance…

The aftermath of the events left her pretty shaken, I don't think any of it was mild (sit on my lap, WTF!!). I have seen people allowed to change teams/managers for much much lesser degrees of uncomfortable. At least in the companies I have worked in, it would pretty much guarantee that the manager was made to leave.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#149

Post by icebraining »

mbrutsch wrote: post #39
AznHisoka wrote: post #5

Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal problem you'll find in all industries.

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit ou…

A friend of my mother's also worked in a similar all-male environment, and had the same response to advances. It went well - until it didn't, and then it went terribly.

And of course, she didn't publicly tell her "tale of woe" because at the time she wouldn't have just one guy telling her she shared the blame for it, but the whole society. So she suffered in silence. Which is great, because it allowed everyone else - even years later - to pretend it didn't exist, and that people were just braver and stronger, unlike the kids these days.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#150

Post by isnullorempty »

pc86 wrote: post #138
isnullorempty wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what are you supposed to do if you are attracted to someone at work, never make a move? Women need to be more forgiving and take it as a compliment, unless someone continues after a clear rejection (which is the definition of harassment).

You do not need a "clear rejection" to make something harassment. If I've never spoken to someone but I spend ten minutes a day staring at her chest, that's harassment. If I ask someone out, they say yes, and keep rescheduling 100 times, me continuing to ask them out and not take the (subtle, non-obvious) hint is still harassment.

Looking at someone is harassment now? I must have harassed hundreds of women then, What about thinking about them?
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