Earlier quoted context omitted.
How can you pay your tax bill with capital? Do I give the government shares in my corporation? Or, am I forced to sell shares every year to pay the bill? What happens if the corporation is private, and there is no liquid market for my shares? In that case, how can you even determine how much capital I have? What happens if the company I own shares in goes bankrupt at the start of the year? Do I still owe taxes on the…
I'm guessing they would enforce some sort of standard valuation for things like that. Or only when it is possible. So a fledgling business, or shares that aren't publicly tradeable. Any who, the point is. They will find a way that they will claim is "fair" and consistent but probably has loop holes, and figure out a way to tax capital.
Economic Inequality
531–540 of 580 posts
Re: Economic Inequality
#532Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Please show me a quote where PG makes this argument. Once again, how many of PG's essays have you read? This is like asking someone in your English literature class to show you an example of Shakespeare making a joke in one of his plays. But ok, I'll play along. In the subject essay, PG describes himself as a "manufacturer of economic inequality". How is he manufacturing it? By teaching people how to get rich by cr…
This thread has gotten a bit muddled, but I don't think the thrust of the argument is that Jobs didn't want to get rich (did someone upthread actually argue that?); instead, its "if he had to get somewhat less rich, would he have done what he did?", to which I think it's far to ask "yes, but how much less would he have been OK with before he said 'no way'?" The discussion is about marginal tax rates without stating i…
No, it isn't. The discussion is about Graham's claim (which I agree with) that income inequality due to variations in productivity--i.e., allowing people to get rich in proportion to how much wealth they create--is an unavoidable consequence of economic growth, which means you can't get rid of it without getting rid of economic growth.
Graham makes a separate claim about tax rates, which is that the marginal tax rate has basically no effect at all on tax receipts as a percentage of GDP. This argument is based on nothing more than looking at the actual statistics since World War II, which do indeed show what he claims. But in itself, it says nothing about what, if any, effect marginal tax rates have on wealth creation.
Re: Economic Inequality
#533Earlier quoted context omitted.
I did not misinterpret you, I understand fully what you are trying to say. I disagree with you. You and I are in the fortunate positions of being able to service debt and even avoid it entirely. Many people are not. Lenders have the ability to take advantage of social and financial systems that require debt, and through the application of their profits can alter those systems so that more debt is required to survive.…
I don't get your logic, that it's okay to go into debt for a boat but not your education, an investment in your future earning potential. The problem with education loans is that they're not real loans. The government gives them distortionary financing that inflates tuition. Everytime the government raises the max loan amount, tuitions rise to match it. The college bureaucracies grow to match revenue. It's the same t…
Re: Economic Inequality
#534Spending 3000 words arguing against a strawman in favor of a very damaging economic phenomenon. Graham's selfishness and greed is disgusting. Contrast with Paul Krugman: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/01/opinion/privilege-patholog...
Personal attacks are not allowed here. Regardless of one's views of economics, toxic comments like this one poison Hacker News. Please don't.
Re: Economic Inequality
#535I think paul has a distorted view of wealth. Wealth is NOT a fixed pie. But it is NOT an infinite resource either. To see what wealth is let's follow where it comes from.
All wealth is extracted from nature or produced by man.
What one man is capable of producing/extracting is limited by his hands, feet, physical strength and mental abilities. Since physical strength, mental ability and natural resources are limited... wealth must also be limited.
Billionaires exist in this world. Does one billion dollars represent the wealth that one man can produce? By common sense and intuition... No. For example, Let's say a 747 airplane is worth one billion dollars. In short, one billion dollars in cash symbolically represents a 747. It is impossible for one man to build a 747 yet it is possible for one man to accumulate a billion dollars. Both one billion dollars of cash and a 747 symbolically represent the same value but it is possible for a single human to generate one billion dollars of cash but not possible to generate a plane. How is this possible?
By logic, since wealth comes from people and one person is incapable of producing a billion dollars then for the billionaire to even exist he must've taken wealth from other people.
The question is... how was the wealth taken? The answer is not obvious.
No single man has the physical or mental ability to run a company just like how no single man has the ability to produce a billion dollars in wealth. Thus to create 1 billion dollars in wealth (or a 747) many people MUST work together. A lot of people working together are often called Corporations (Sound familiar?). Corporations are essentially massive groups of people producing massive amounts of wealth.
We can also agree that by logic that the wealth produced by a corporation or a startup is bounded by the sum of the TOTAL WEALTH that the employees of the startup are capable of producing. But what does this have to do with wealth inequality?
Where wealth inequality comes into play is the DISTRIBUTION of the wealth produced by the corporation. The startup owner, the CEO, the C-level executives get an exaggerated portion of this wealth. It's basically a million dollar salary for a CEO who has the work output a single human being. A million dollars pays for 10 human engineers!
But it gets worse then this. At the most extreme case comes the Corporate owner (aka shareholder). Here we have a human that can contribute ZERO work. The owner contributes nothing to the corporation yet by virtue of being the owner he can extract an extreme amount of wealth. As a stock owner you do ZERO work in increasing the value of the company yet you as a stock owner benefited directly from it.
This is where wealth inequality comes from. It does not come from one person working harder than another. If this was the case then people would be relatively more or less equal in terms of wealth as one person can't really produce much more than another person no matter how hard he works, how strong he is, or how intelligent he is. The problem I describe here is a FEATURE of capitalism. Capitalism is the foundation of human civilization.
I'm not making this stuff up. This phenomenon was first noticed by a person called Karl Marx. Karl Marx developed this thing called Communism to combat the above problem. While communism didn't work out in practice, what Karl Marx noticed about it: that wealth inequality is an inevitable consequence of capitalism, was very true. Karl Marx is still considered a genius among many academics today because he was able to identify this critical flaw.
>So when I hear people saying that economic inequality is bad and should be eliminated, I feel rather like a wild animal overhearing a conversation between hunters. But the thing that strikes me most about the conversations I overhear is how confused they are. They don't even seem clear whether they want to kill me or not.
That's because no clear answer exists. Why forcefully make up an answer?
The benefits of wealth inequality are numerous. Capitalism is an anthropological phenomenon. The dawn of civilization started because hunter and gatherers developed the ability to accumulate wealth. Once wealth exists, you get wealth inequality. With wealth inequality you get poor people and rich people. Rich people can pay poor people to build amazing things like boeing 747s and the great pyramids. Rich people will also by virtue of having other people work for them, have a bunch of leisure time to play with subjects unrelated to survival like science, math, and art leading indirectly to the technological civilization we have today.
There is no doubt, that capitalism (aka wealth inequality) has lead to the advanced technological society that exists in the world today. The question of whether or not it is justified is more of a moral question. The thousands of workers who were paid pennies to build the Great Wall of China or the Great Pyramids... Did they get their fair share of the wealth? Do the workers/engineers who made the 747, did they get a fair share of the wealth? There is no question, that from a moral standpoint, the answer is unequivocally: NO. But from a infrastructure and economic standpoint, for the advanced technological civilization that live in today to exist, it was probably necessary.
Looking towards the future I would ask, is there a better way? Is there a way to make a society that is both efficient and moral? Communism was one possible answer, is there a better answer?
Re: Economic Inequality
#536This was a bizarre article. I assume PG is a very smart guy so it baffles me when he writes something which so obviously has blinders on. Did he not stop to think what are the consequences of economic inequality and then quickly realize why people worry about it? No its not about poverty, it really is about inequality. Wealth is power, and in any society where power is distributed so unevenly, people will take action…
Re: Economic Inequality
#537Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hoarding? Do you think rich people just stuff their money in a mattress? Even if they deposited it all in checking accounts, the banks would reinvest it all over the economy.
Yes, the problem is hoarding. Which is proportional to the delta in potential and actual productivity of the already wealthy (and their assets). Here's a quick demonstration: imagine all US taxation (apart from excise taxes) was replaced by a 3% yearly tax on household net wealth. No income taxes. No corporate taxes. No cap gains. No weird deductions based on expected future whatever. The question now is: cui bono? T…
The evidence is inconclusive - some (Norway, Switzerland) are economically strong societies, while others (Spain, India) are economic basket cases.
Side effect of introducing a wealth tax is an increase in corruption as all of a sudden subjective evaluations of illiquid property can lead to substantial increases, so there are scenarios where it's cheaper to pay off the assessor in private than be subjected to an increase. Litigation to question the assessed value is a fairly minor occurrence nowadays, but with universal wealth tax owners of illiquid property are likely to sue more often, as there's more property to assess (and hence make mistakes).
India and Italy are known for high corruption levels, and you could argue that placing low-paid government officials into high-value positions is almost corruption by design.
Re: Economic Inequality
#538Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's nothing wrong with someone getting rich provided they contribute a proportional amount of value to society. Problem is that since the post-WII period (also called the Golden Age of Capitalism) such rewards have been happening less and less [1,2]. In fact, I think reducing inequality is essential for promoting productivity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_econ... [2] https://upload.…
Also how many of these people are preserving their wealth by diverting their justly earned income into rentier activity, such as property? In addition many patents are rentier activity. They are taking collected human knowledge and ring-fencing an area to derive economic rent. I'm not even sure I'm interested in Graham's writings on lisp. Economics, forget it.
Yet for some reason countries with weak IP protection do not present the world with abundance of new technologies or pharma.
Re: Economic Inequality
#539Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't like Uber either; I just dislike dishonest propaganda, even if targeted at a bad actor. > They don't give a flying fuck about the law, and they're too big for any single city to pressure them into anything. I think that's a little overblown. Uber has been forced to leave many cities (Paris, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Madrid, etc) and parts of cities (e.g. Calgary Airport). Uber may be willing to bend the law, but th…
Fair enough. I know about Germany, but I missed Paris and Madrid - thanks for the info. Though how much % of the total operations is that? But it's not bending it, it's disregarding and breaking it. Bending was what Uber-like services have been doing in Europe for past 10+ years, and in time they managed to integrate themselves with the infrastructure nicely. In my city the IRS tries to randomly call and then fine th…
Re: Economic Inequality
#540Earlier quoted context omitted.
You cannot end all economic inequality without removing freedom. A free society where people can freely express their full potential will create inequalities by default. Even if we manage to give equal opportunities to everyone, some people will manage better than others. Some people are born to be Mozart and Newtons. That is just how it is, and when you are one of these people, with greater potential, you will accom…
And, some people are born Mozarts and Newtons, and we never hear of them because they they lack connections, access, leisure, and opportunity. I don't know what true socialism feels like, but I do know that whatever mixed system the U.S. has certainly doesn't feel like freedom. Whatever we have, I'd like to try something new because it's not working.
As some one from India, who knows US quite closely(Through work and visits). I can tell you US is the most free and meritorious society in the world currently. By and large anybody can do anything they want in the US. However the keyword there is 'wanting'. Its not going to be easy. Its a bit like saying you could be your class topper in school/college if the examination was a little easier.
>> I'd like to try something new because it's not working.
You only feel that way because you haven't seen anything worse.