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Economic Inequality

paulgraham.com

231–240 of 580 posts

Re: Economic Inequality

#231

Graham is arguing against an enormous straw man. Nobody is suggesting that we “prevent people from getting rich” or “end all economic inequality”. The most extreme proposals I’ve seen in America are ones like, “institute an unconditional basic income as an alternative to means-tested welfare programs,” or “allow every citizen/resident into a single-payer healthcare system,” or “go back to the tax structure of the 195…

Even those in what remains of America's radical left don't make this argument (the few that do aren't taken seriously by their fellow leftists anymore); even in Europe, which is far more generous in terms of social welfare provision has some level of wealth inequality. So it's definitely a huge strawman. PG makes several statements which shows that he understands important parts of the problem (poverty, mobility), but it's incomplete (and credit to him for writing a thoughtful piece on the issue - more people in power should be doing the same.) Instead, the picture looks more like this:

1) Massive wealth inequality distorts policies towards the preferences of the rich (http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/~jnd260/cab/CAB2012%20-..., http://www.demos.org/stacked-deck-how-dominance-politics-aff..., Affluence and Influence), so reducing inequality does more than just give people more mobility; it allows government to more accurately reflect the will of the people. It's democracy-enabling. Massive inequality in wealth breeds massive inequality in political power. No amount of mobility or opportunity can fix this one, only inequality reduction itself.

2) As Hayes discusses in "Twilight of the Elites", we've learned that basically everyone in the US has accepted the current notions of meritocracy, social mobility, and equality of opportunity. What is currently not well-accepted is that in order to achieve anything like equality of opportunity and social mobility, you need more equality of outcome in the first place. One can express this as "reducing poverty", but that's just a _reframing the same idea_. We are in fact talking about redistributing money from the very rich and giving it to the not-rich, one way or another, to improve EoOpp and SM. That reduces inequality by definition.

3) Massive inequality itself increases social distance, which is partially reflected in #1. When all one sees, knows, meets, etc. are other wealthy people, one may wind up becoming disconnected from the plight of the non-wealthy. They become an annoyance, invisible, or irrelevant, which is reflected not only in policy, but also in self-reinforcing cycles of disinterest and disconnection in the realm of social relations. Inequality has to be reduced somewhat to reduce that social distance.

4) When we speak of inequality reduction, it can be understood as "wealth range compression." The top go down, the bottom go up. Many analogize chopping off the top and putting it at the bottom, but the compression metaphor works better IMO.

5) Some worry (like Acemoglu) that US inequality subsidizes other nations in terms of innovation. I think Edsall and others have completely demolished the argument, and its was largely facile in the face of facts like Sweden having invented the ultrasound, the pacemaker, and AIS (an advancement of GPS) or Denmark having invented the loudspeaker, Bluetooth, and Insulin. You could even argue the opposite: a society that gives people a better safety net (Peltzman effect again) combined with an entrepreneurial culture will produce more, not less innovation.

The recommendations for remedying this are fairly tame in the European / Scand. context, mostly because fewer of them have internalized ideas like "taxation is theft" or "everything that happens to you is your own fault." We should regard the following as non-controversial (some a restatement of your list items):

- Marginal tax rates at the top of 50% (France is even higher and still has rich people) and policies to make sure the rates stay progressive.

- Closing tax loopholes, forcible repatriation of stashed offshore assets, fully funding the IRS, and eliminating (for real) tax havens and their usage.

- Debt-free higher ed (full rides, living stipends, the works)

- A real universal health system

- No games with inheritance taxes

- Non-punitive, non-humiliating policies to help the poor like a GBI or expanded automatic welfare provision

- Not gutting social security

If we were to implement the whole of Sanders' platform, for example (most of which I agree with, a few items I think are questionable), we'd still be to the right of a Denmark or Sweden(!) We'd be slightly to the right of what we had during the Great Society.

It's a return to sanity, basic living standards, and mobility. Hardly the stuff of Galtian nightmares.

Re: Economic Inequality

#232
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I really don't see your point. Piketty shows (with data, by the way) that, below a percentage of economic grow, capital returns are bigger than labour returns. The conclusion is that there is a trend (very important, it is a trend) to bigger inequality inherent to the system. What do he propose? A communist revolution? The abolition of inequality by the proletariat? No, just tax capital so we can redistribute it to a…

How does one tax capital?

Re: Economic Inequality

#233

Graham is arguing against an enormous straw man. Nobody is suggesting that we “prevent people from getting rich” or “end all economic inequality”. The most extreme proposals I’ve seen in America are ones like, “institute an unconditional basic income as an alternative to means-tested welfare programs,” or “allow every citizen/resident into a single-payer healthcare system,” or “go back to the tax structure of the 195…

The most extreme proposals I’ve seen in America are ones like... The most extreme proposals I've seen in America are a federal job guarantee and a permanent incomes policy similar to the Nixon wage and price controls of the early 70s. Post-Keynesians and MMT proponents are very enthusiastic about them, and they reject the idea of the basic income FWIW.

Please stay with the facts. Price controls are a very different and much dumber idea than a job guarantee or the basic income.

Re: Economic Inequality

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not misinterpret you, I understand fully what you are trying to say. I disagree with you. You and I are in the fortunate positions of being able to service debt and even avoid it entirely. Many people are not. Lenders have the ability to take advantage of social and financial systems that require debt, and through the application of their profits can alter those systems so that more debt is required to survive.…

I don't get your logic, that it's okay to go into debt for a boat but not your education, an investment in your future earning potential. The problem with education loans is that they're not real loans. The government gives them distortionary financing that inflates tuition. Everytime the government raises the max loan amount, tuitions rise to match it. The college bureaucracies grow to match revenue. It's the same t…

I think the other commenter may be suggesting that it's wrong for life's bare essentials to require large amounts of debt, but beyond essentials a well-informed person should have debt as an option.

Re: Economic Inequality

#235
post #36
post #4

Central thesis (hidden a bit): "ending economic inequality would mean ending startups". So, who is the straw man who advocates completely ending economic inequality? Even left wingers in Europe (far to the left of anyone mainstream in the US) talk mainly of reducing it. So, if economic inequality were substantially reduced, would there still be startups? I believe another piece of common advice in this field is that…

Reducing economic inequality is merely a lesser form of eliminating it. I think the tough question people should consider here is whether relative inequality or absolute standard of living is the more important metric. If absolute standard of living rises faster as economic inequality increases, why should we try and limit economic inequality?

Various reasons, but one of the most compelling in my view is that a society with a (relatively) increasingly wealthy elite eventually becomes unstable - money generally correlates with political power.

Re: Economic Inequality

#236
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd not have thought that this would be a controversial statement given the current nature of US politics. Both parties are highly dependent on enormously wealthy donors. It's hard to believe that these people are getting nothing in return for their money. Graham's surprisingly naive about this. He simply says "The great concentrations of wealth I see around me in Silicon Valley don't seem to be destroying democracy.…

It should be easy to provide a citation then, I presume? saying "it's obvious" doesn't actually count as evidence

It's a bit like asking for a citation showing that Barack Obama is currently the president. It would be hard to know where to start. Someone already mentioned the Koch brothers, and the recent news is not difficult to Google.

Re: Economic Inequality

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most extreme proposals I’ve seen in America are ones like... The most extreme proposals I've seen in America are a federal job guarantee and a permanent incomes policy similar to the Nixon wage and price controls of the early 70s. Post-Keynesians and MMT proponents are very enthusiastic about them, and they reject the idea of the basic income FWIW.

The Nixon wage-price controls were a disaster. They also precipitated the oil crisis, which persisted until Reagan finally cancelled the oil price controls.

The oil crisis was a result of the collapse of the Breton Woods System. Wage-price controls were merely a prop to stem the collapse.

Re: Economic Inequality

#238
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. There would still be sufficient economic motivations for startups and startup founders in a world where startup founders were taxed at a 75% rate.

I'm not sure about that. Work your ass off for four years, successfully exit with equity worth $4 million, and you only keep $1 million? That's about what you could have made at Google.

The interesting thing is that if the potential outcome of founding or working at a startup were less, salaries at Google would likely be lower, too. After all, those Google salaries are so high in part because of competition by startups.

Re: Economic Inequality

#239
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a disingenuous rebuttal. The difference in wealth between someone worth $45B, and two people each worth $1 million and -$1million respectively, is identical. The millionaire is worth less than 0.01% of the first. If this were a card game, the millionaire could go piss himself. If it were possible to put $45B into a typical savings account earning 1% interest per year, that $45B person will make more money doi…

Hoarding? Do you think rich people just stuff their money in a mattress? Even if they deposited it all in checking accounts, the banks would reinvest it all over the economy.

Yes, the problem is hoarding. Which is proportional to the delta in potential and actual productivity of the already wealthy (and their assets).

Here's a quick demonstration: imagine all US taxation (apart from excise taxes) was replaced by a 3% yearly tax on household net wealth. No income taxes. No corporate taxes. No cap gains. No weird deductions based on expected future whatever. The question now is: cui bono? The hard working, high growth individuals (wealthy or not) benefit because their income and capital gains remain untouched -- they just need to earn enough in returns to offset the 3% tax. And who loses? The hoarders engaged strictly in "wealth preservation" (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wealth+preserv...).

Re: Economic Inequality

#240

Graham is arguing against an enormous straw man. Nobody is suggesting that we “prevent people from getting rich” or “end all economic inequality”. The most extreme proposals I’ve seen in America are ones like, “institute an unconditional basic income as an alternative to means-tested welfare programs,” or “allow every citizen/resident into a single-payer healthcare system,” or “go back to the tax structure of the 195…

On that note: the most offensive economic inequality isn't the 1% vs. the 99%, which successful startup founders would find themselves on the wrong side of. It's more about the 80 individuals with more wealth than half the world's population [1] – which, yes, does include "startup founders" such as Gates, Ellison, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Page & Brin, etc. But the vast majority of successful startup founders aren't in this…

I disagree. Those people having a lot of wealth doesn't affect ordinary people much at all. The inequality that affects ordinary people is the kind that drives up housing prices and drives out long-time residents, or those that bid uo healthcare or educational costs. The thousands of Facebook employees making six figures contribute more to inequality in practice in their communities than Zuckerberg.
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