Live data from Hacker News

Economic Inequality

paulgraham.com

401–410 of 580 posts

Re: Economic Inequality

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am actually suggesting that we end all economic inequality. The only reason I don't argue for "end all inequality" is that it's physically impossible as much as we know it. Economy should be about what is good for everyone, it shouldn't contain anything which can be used to exploit other humans due to their "economic circumstances". The current system does allow it, and as long as you can attach a number to any per…

You cannot end all economic inequality without removing freedom. A free society where people can freely express their full potential will create inequalities by default. Even if we manage to give equal opportunities to everyone, some people will manage better than others. Some people are born to be Mozart and Newtons. That is just how it is, and when you are one of these people, with greater potential, you will accom…

And, some people are born Mozarts and Newtons, and we never hear of them because they they lack connections, access, leisure, and opportunity.

I don't know what true socialism feels like, but I do know that whatever mixed system the U.S. has certainly doesn't feel like freedom. Whatever we have, I'd like to try something new because it's not working.

Re: Economic Inequality

#402
post #366

Graham is arguing against an enormous straw man. Nobody is suggesting that we “prevent people from getting rich” or “end all economic inequality”. The most extreme proposals I’ve seen in America are ones like, “institute an unconditional basic income as an alternative to means-tested welfare programs,” or “allow every citizen/resident into a single-payer healthcare system,” or “go back to the tax structure of the 195…

I don't think PG is attacking a straw man at all. In my career as a software engineer, I've run into a significant number of outright communists. Like most of us, they keep their political opinions to themselves most of the time. But occasionally, they let slip how they would welcome revolution. I don't want to name names or expose people who don't want to be exposed, so I'll just give one prominent example. Steve Kl…

As I've said on Twitter, I'm not _exacty_ a communist. I am far left, but the differences matter only if you're already a leftist. I think "anti capitalist" is the more accurate umbrella term.

I'm also one of the highest karma people on this very site. ;)

Re: Economic Inequality

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nixon wage-price controls were a disaster. They also precipitated the oil crisis, which persisted until Reagan finally cancelled the oil price controls.

I'm not aware of the relationship between Nixon era wage policies and the oil crisis. Do you have some info on that?

One of the first things Reagan did when inaugurated was, by Executive Order, rescind the oil price controls. The gas lines vanished overnight and never returned in the 35 years since, despite all kinds of gyrations in the oil business.

It's rare that we have such a clear example of the deleterious effects of price controls.

Re: Economic Inequality

#404
post #384
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of everything I said, I'm surprised this is the thing that's contested. Just scroll through his Twitter feed. Here are a few recent ones: https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/682787891936948224 https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/682788969843658752 https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/682787609446330368 https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/682787371235016705 He retweeted this: https://twitter.com/kan…

Right, that looks pretty clear then. I guess I meant to say that citing his summarizing of Marx is a pretty poor way to suggest someone is a communist, if you can link to something that literally says "I am a communist". Plenty of non-communists cite Marx.

This is 100% accurate. My ultimate allegiance is to Deleuze, but that's only relevant to a VERY small niche of people. Marx is much more well-known.

Also, I care more about left unity than arguing over the exact kind of leftist I or others are.

Re: Economic Inequality

#405

To me, income inequality means: The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. But that is not the situation. In reality, the situation is: A rising tide raises all boats. The global pie is getting bigger because GDP is growing faster than the population: - GDP Growth since 1999 ~2.5% annually [0] - Population growth since 1999 ~1.3% annually [1] - % of world population living in extreme poverty has more than halved since…

Look at the quintiles in the second graph here, which adjusts for inflation: http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-... It's very clear that the bottom 60% of the USA hasn't risen even slightly in the last 50 years. And the 20% above that has only risen slightly. While the top 20% has approximately doubled. (I suspect that if you broke it down further the rises would mostly acccumulate to the top…

So, the rich are getting richer, but the poor are at least not getting poorer? While not ideal, it doesn't sound so bad to me, or am I missing something?

Re: Economic Inequality

#406

Graham is arguing against an enormous straw man. Nobody is suggesting that we “prevent people from getting rich” or “end all economic inequality”. The most extreme proposals I’ve seen in America are ones like, “institute an unconditional basic income as an alternative to means-tested welfare programs,” or “allow every citizen/resident into a single-payer healthcare system,” or “go back to the tax structure of the 195…

| Graham is arguing against an enormous straw man.

Word. I don't know anyone who understands enough to actually have a discussion (e.g. isn't some back to nature hippy) and seriously thinks we should attempt to minimise the opportunities to create new wealth. Everyone I know who argues for reduced economic inequality favours increased minimum wages and/or redistributive mechanisms (income/wealth tax). I don't know if Graham has encountered people who seriously argue against permitting opportunities to create wealth, or just thinks those people exist, or has some sort of anti-redistribution agenda (which would function to reduce the potential gains that could accrue to startup founders... though not significantly).

I was particularly struck by this suggestion:

"And if there are people getting rich by tricking consumers or lobbying the government for anti-competitive regulations or tax loopholes, then let's stop them. Not because it's causing economic inequality, but because it's stealing."

Stealing is an extremely imprecise and emotive word, and he makes no effort to clarify. Which is usually what you do when you want a lot of people to feel like they agree with your arguments even when they might not if you went into detail. But the weirder part of the statement (ignoring the fairly broad 'tricking consumers', which would include most people who market their products) is that he specifically identifies tax avoidance (which I'd argue ISN'T stealing) as something we should eliminate... "not because it's causing economic inequality, but because it's stealing", even though the main reason we have tax AT ALL (and hence laws around when you do/don't need to pay it) is to reduce economic inequality!

So... all our existing tax laws, and their economic-inequality-reducing redistributive effects, are wise and good and infractions should be rigorously prosecuted because they'd amount to stealing. But any NEW tax laws that might increase the redistribution of wealth to increase economic-equality would be bad and misguided? Because where we are, right now, is the perfect optimum, despite the widespread evidence of increased concentration of wealth and its negative consequences? Riiiight.

Finally, last I checked there are various areas which have lower tax than the USA. Yet somehow plenty of startups are still formed in the USA. Which casts doubt on the 'the startups will move elsewhere if you change anything to reduce their direct rewards' argument.

Re: Economic Inequality

#408
post #381
post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read through the links you cited, just the excerpt. A lot of non-communists cite Marx. My economics professors in University certainly did, including one who advocated eliminating corporate taxes.

Out of everything I said, I'm surprised this is the thing that's contested. Just scroll through his Twitter feed. Here are a few recent ones: https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/682787891936948224 https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/682788969843658752 https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/682787609446330368 https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/682787371235016705 He retweeted this: https://twitter.com/kan…

Yeah so the IWW is an anarchist organization, not a communist one. Or at least, not a Marxist one. Soooooooooo

Re: Economic Inequality

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well food prices are significantly lower in the EU than the US. A more dramatic case, Spain, the consumer bread prices can be 1/10 US prices. Vegetables run a fraction of US price, eggs about 1/3. Even corn is less expensive when it reaches the consumer. Yet the median wage is on the order of .75 US and minimum wage including farm worker wages, are higher. Yet US agriculture is more mechanized and agro-business more…

"So empirically the most significant factor is now something else." That "something else" would be the 40%(!) of the EU budget that is spent on agricultural subsidies.

Yes exactly, instead of being wrapped up in the John Deer corp. the money is being used to lower prices for society and do a better job of making food accessible to the people.

Re: Economic Inequality

#410
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These sorts of discussions always go downhill because they very quickly turn into defending (and attacking) people as if their identity is inextricably linked to their wealth, which means that policy discussions are read (and sometimes written) as personal attacks. Can we do better than that, please? I don't see a claim that any of these folks are bad people for their money. Gates, for instance, is doing extraordinar…

Empirically, how well do you feel the US government spends its budget currently? There's often an assumption in these discussions that if a billionaire isn't spending their money in a socially optimal way, the government will spend it better. But if you look at how governments actually spend their money, you'll find very little evidence to support that assumption.

Capitalism does a fine job at some things, but there are areas where governments deliver better outcomes.

Single payer health care is a good example.

We should strive to avoid dogma and choose the best available solution.

Post reply on HN