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“Corn-Pone Opinions” by Mark Twain (1901)

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Re: “Corn-Pone Opinions” by Mark Twain (1901)

#21

Post by jccc »

kcorbitt wrote: post #2

I agree with this sentiment in general, especially that our own feeling of self-worth can be determined to a fair degree by the opinions of people we surround ourselves with, and that this drives conformity. However, I'd add an important corollary, and one that is perhaps a bit less cynical :). Even if it's mostly true that you can only feel fulfilled when your actions and opinions are approved by your peers, you sti…

you still get to chose who your peers are, and whose opinion you value

Is that any less influenced by self-approval, and the approval of others?

Re: “Corn-Pone Opinions” by Mark Twain (1901)

#23

Post by mr_luc »

kcorbitt wrote: post #2

I agree with this sentiment in general, especially that our own feeling of self-worth can be determined to a fair degree by the opinions of people we surround ourselves with, and that this drives conformity. However, I'd add an important corollary, and one that is perhaps a bit less cynical :). Even if it's mostly true that you can only feel fulfilled when your actions and opinions are approved by your peers, you sti…

I agree that it's more possible now to switch/choose alignment than it ever was. And being 'more possible' means that it must be happening more.

But "why people choose the communities they align with" doesn't seem much different than "why people have their opinions." Are we carefully choosing who we align ourselves with, any more than we're choosing our opinions?

I don't think there's any test for this, or any cure, other than making time to ruminate, meditate, and ponder. Alone. Free from distractions and other voices.

And if that's the case, isn't it at least possible that today it's both easier to switch communities, and less likely to be for any principled reason?

Re: “Corn-Pone Opinions” by Mark Twain (1901)

#24

Post by irq-1 »

Twain was wrong on his main point. He claims self-approval as the motivator for following fashions (of all sorts), but most conformity comes from trying to navigate life: we do what works for our neighbors. IBMs dress code wasn't adopted because coworkers liked the fashion, but because if you wanted to work at IBM you needed to wear the uniform. Time and interest are limited, and copying is easy.

> Do you believe that a tenth part of the people, on either side, had any rational excuse for having an opinion about the matter at all? I studied that mighty question to the bottom -- came out empty. ... We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking. And out of it we get an aggregation which we consider a boon.

This mistakes the value of expressing an opinion or having a vote. First, there's the personal benefit of investigating and thinking something through (even if you "came out empty"). Second, there's a public benefit to encouraging people to investigate and thinking something through on their own. Third, the 'wisdom of the crowd' might be right, show us new ideas, or offer insight and wisdom.

--

This essay seems related to Paul Grahams "How to Do What You Love". He wrote that when deciding what to do, we should consider what's respected by our peers.

> What you should not do, I think, is worry about the opinion of anyone beyond your friends. You shouldn't worry about prestige. Prestige is the opinion of the rest of the world. When you can ask the opinions of people whose judgement you respect, what does it add to consider the opinions of people you don't even know? [4]

> This is easy advice to give. It's hard to follow, especially when you're young. [5] Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. It causes you to work not on what you like, but what you'd like to like.

http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html

Re: “Corn-Pone Opinions” by Mark Twain (1901)

#25

Post by icebraining »

allenbrunson wrote: post #4

Here's what I have to say about that: That's pretty rich, coming from you, Paul Graham. You have All The Money, and All The Respect amongst your large and powerful peer group. Given your considerable wealth, there's nothing anybody can do to negatively impact your life in any meaningful way. Yet you continue to bang the same drum you've been banging for a decade now, at least. Time to tell us something we don't alrea…

This was posted a decade ago. Someone just decided to submit it to HN now.

Re: “Corn-Pone Opinions” by Mark Twain (1901)

#26

Post by plusquamperfekt »

mr_luc wrote: post #23
kcorbitt wrote: post #2

I agree with this sentiment in general, especially that our own feeling of self-worth can be determined to a fair degree by the opinions of people we surround ourselves with, and that this drives conformity. However, I'd add an important corollary, and one that is perhaps a bit less cynical :). Even if it's mostly true that you can only feel fulfilled when your actions and opinions are approved by your peers, you sti…

I agree that it's more possible now to switch/choose alignment than it ever was. And being 'more possible' means that it must be happening more. But "why people choose the communities they align with" doesn't seem much different than "why people have their opinions." Are we carefully choosing who we align ourselves with, any more than we're choosing our opinions? I don't think there's any test for this, or any cure,…

Good point - one might choose one's peers based on the desired feedback - the end result wouldn't be more healthy than adapting oneself to the feedback of a static peer group.

Re: “Corn-Pone Opinions” by Mark Twain (1901)

#27

Post by dpweb »

JadeNB wrote: post #16
dpweb wrote: post #3

I like how Emerson felt about conformity, not to mention - to be exceptional, one must be a non-conformist. Many would rather be accepted than exceptional At some point in your life, you may have to make that choice. The problem with public opinion in our times is this idea that the crowd is always right. Something is true because the crowd says it is. The crowd saying it is, makes it true. Sane is not the same as tr…

> Many would rather be accepted than exceptional. At some point in your life, you may have to make that choice. I think that there are two problems with this. (EDIT: 'Problems' is a bad word. I don't mean two things that make it wrong, but rather two things that require a careful reading to appreciate fully. I should have said 'subtleties'.) First, and most importantly, I think that people think that being exceptiona…

In deciding to be exceptional, I'm thinking of the courageous act of separating yourself from the crowd when it's safer to conform, when faced with a binary decision between the two. That decision can have lifelong consequences. A friend who could have been an olympic swimmer - but it was easier to not put in the effort, get a job at the local health food store, and get married. Or the brilliant kid with enormous potential, growing up in the bad neighborhood, who purposely fails at school to not get bullied.

I would separate the non-conformist whose conscience puts them at odds with a misguided but widespread popular opinion, from the contrarian. Being contrarian just for the sake of it can be silly sometimes. Although I still like those who consider that so much of their identity that they take contrarian positions even when unnecessary. If anything they are a non-yielding role model and we could use some of that, cause the scales are definately tipped in favor of conformity. It's drilled into us from a very young age.

Re: “Corn-Pone Opinions” by Mark Twain (1901)

#28

Post by JadeNB »

dpweb wrote: post #27
JadeNB wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many would rather be accepted than exceptional. At some point in your life, you may have to make that choice. I think that there are two problems with this. (EDIT: 'Problems' is a bad word. I don't mean two things that make it wrong, but rather two things that require a careful reading to appreciate fully. I should have said 'subtleties'.) First, and most importantly, I think that people think that being exceptiona…

In deciding to be exceptional, I'm thinking of the courageous act of separating yourself from the crowd when it's safer to conform, when faced with a binary decision between the two. That decision can have lifelong consequences. A friend who could have been an olympic swimmer - but it was easier to not put in the effort, get a job at the local health food store, and get married. Or the brilliant kid with enormous pot…

> In deciding to be exceptional, I'm thinking of the courageous act of separating yourself from the crowd when it's safer to conform, when faced with a binary decision between the two.

I still think that this decision is one concerning becoming, rather than being, exceptional. That is, I think of being exceptional as the accumulated result of good decisions, rather than as a single (even lifelong) decision in its own right.

> I would separate the non-conformist whose conscience puts them at odds with a misguided but widespread popular opinion, from the contrarian.

Oh, I see; I was reading 'non-conformist' as essentially synonymous with 'contrarian'. Your clarifying the distinction addresses my second point.

> Although I still like those who consider that so much of their identity that they take contrarian positions even when unnecessary. If anything they are a non-yielding role model and we could use some of that, cause the scales are definately tipped in favor of conformity.

As a reflexive contrarian (I am so inclined to test positions by argument that, if it happens that I convince my interlocutor, then I sometimes unthinkingly argue against his or her new position, which I had been urging, and in favour of the original position), I am not sure that there is as much value to such a position as you suggest; but that is a minor point, and besides I could easily be wrong.

Re: “Corn-Pone Opinions” by Mark Twain (1901)

#29

Post by dpweb »

JadeNB wrote: post #28
dpweb wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In deciding to be exceptional, I'm thinking of the courageous act of separating yourself from the crowd when it's safer to conform, when faced with a binary decision between the two. That decision can have lifelong consequences. A friend who could have been an olympic swimmer - but it was easier to not put in the effort, get a job at the local health food store, and get married. Or the brilliant kid with enormous pot…

> In deciding to be exceptional, I'm thinking of the courageous act of separating yourself from the crowd when it's safer to conform, when faced with a binary decision between the two. I still think that this decision is one concerning becoming , rather than being , exceptional. That is, I think of being exceptional as the accumulated result of good decisions, rather than as a single (even lifelong) decision in its o…

The technologist, specifically the software developer (ie.. the typical HN reader) seems to often be a non-conformist, even contrarian. Why do you think that is? Cause we think we're smarter than everyone else, is my theory!
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