Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

computerworld.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 156 posts

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#131

Post by induscreep »

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #34
secondtimeuse wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there was a 6% increase in salary between 2013 and 2014. And the "data" for 2015 is derived from mere 705 "# of Salaries". There aren't any new recent moves by DHS regarding "OPTs". The proposed change in "STEM Extension", won't come into affect at least until mid 2016.

I compared 2014 to 2015. In regard to DHS, the US court system found that DHS unlawfully created the rules for OPT in 2008 in backroom deals with industry lobbyists. When the court told them so, the DHS went in to "all hands on deck" mode to come up with a work around. (So far they've failed, putting ~130k OPT guest workers at risk of having to leave the country on Feb 12th 2016). Besides the question of what is DHS…

> Where is the support for the citizens?

Why should citizens be treated differently when H1Bs pay the same income and other taxes as citizens? H1Bs even pay into social security, even though they are on a temporary visa.

Anyone who pays the same tax as citizens should be treated the same as citizens.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#132

Post by Barraketh »

abalashov wrote: post #124
BurningFrog wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If an H-1B employee is fired, they get deported. That was definitely not true during my time on H1B. The feds could legally deport you, but they never bothered to.

Well, yes, but then you're just benefitting from lax de facto enforcement, not any de jure certainty. And anything de facto which operates below the standard demanded by de jure can change at a moment's notice, subject to politics, audits, or someone waking up on the wrong side of the bed.

There's a bit more safety than that. When you enter the country on an H1b, you get an I94 that is valid until your visa expires. If you then lose your visa (because you've left the company or got fired), you can still legally stay in the country until your I94 expires. The caveat is, an immigration officer can take away your I94 at any time, at which point you would be forced to leave. However, as long as you avoid immigration officers, you are not breaking any laws by staying and looking for another job.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#133

Post by klipt »

staticint wrote: post #74
ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

Also, H1B workers get paid the same as local workers... So if you buy the allegation that wages are being depressed by H1B workers, why don't you take a peek at the bulletin board of your break room The idea usually is that the presence of an H1B means that someone local does not exist to do the job, which means that a company would otherwise have to pay more than the going rate to poach someone else from another com…

> The idea usually is that the presence of an H1B means that someone local does not exist to do the job, which means that a company would otherwise have to pay more than the going rate to poach someone else from another company. Then the company losing the employee has to pay more to poach from somewhere else, and so on, until eventually everyone who is suitable for such a position is making more.

In simple economic terms, yes, supply and demand exist, and if you reduce the supply of software engineers their salary will go up. However, canning the H1-B program is only one way to reduce supply. One could also limit the number of computer science degrees granted by US universities, and that would increase software engineer wages too. Is such protectionism justified? Probably not. But a lot of people seem to take an "ends justifies the means" approach when arguing against immigration.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#134

Post by klipt »

fpgeek wrote: post #119
henrikm85 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I switched jobs on H1B recently and I don't see what you think the leash is. The process takes about two weeks and as far as I can tell there is no realistic risk of losing the H1B even if your (about to be) former employer fires you and the new company butchers the transfer [1]. As a side-note, me changing jobs fairly dramatically increased my salary. I could presumably (I did not negotiate with old employer but a c…

My understanding is that the real leash is the H1B to green card process. The process is slow and complicated and switching companies often requires you to start over (not to mention opening doors for other problems).

Yeah, the green card process is hopelessly bureaucratic. Even an employee moving within the same company from San Francisco to Silicon Valley requires restarting the process from scratch.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#135

Post by brazzledazzle »

prostoalex wrote: post #128
staticint wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, H1B workers get paid the same as local workers... So if you buy the allegation that wages are being depressed by H1B workers, why don't you take a peek at the bulletin board of your break room The idea usually is that the presence of an H1B means that someone local does not exist to do the job, which means that a company would otherwise have to pay more than the going rate to poach someone else from another com…

> The idea usually is that the presence of an H1B means that someone local does not exist to do the job The way it works with large bodyshops is, let's say, HP runs a software team of 20 paying everybody $100k. Infosys or other "consulting" company then shows up and offers to run the same project at the cost of $1.6 mil. Immense savings, so HP signs the deal. Infosys then runs the H1 posting advertising 20 position p…

>then immediately to start work at client's location in Cupertino or Seattle

Yep. They seem to favor cramming them into the nearest apartments (if possible in walking distance). It's probably optional, but your options are limited when you're getting paid dick, looking for housing in an area with higher cost of living and you're trying to send money home. I'm not saying it's not a comparatively good opportunity for them but they could be paid more fairly.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#136

Post by Nutmog »

latj wrote: post #91
ashwinaj wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am replying to those who make claims that H1B workers are being paid below market rate, hence driving down salaries. There is a minimum wage requirement as I mentioned which is approved by the state department of labor. Again, these "driving down wages" doesn't hold water when the H1B salaries are public information.

Ok, we've heard your proposition. Now make some arguments. Now show some evidence. For example, mean pay for a software developer in state of California is $119,970 according to Bureau of Labor Statistics [1]. What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay? My instinct is that you are correct and H1B visas are not driving down salaries- but thats just a g…

To sidestep the argument, why is it bad to push wages down? American born babies push wages down too, so do local university graduates. Should those things be restricted too?

If all American workers earn less, then cost of living drops too and it's not much of a problem.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#137

Post by brazzledazzle »

ashwinaj wrote: post #69
nickbauman wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still believe it's a wage suppression strategy. Here's why: I used to work for a major multinational based in Europe, but I lived here in the US. Many of the people I worked with were not US citizens, but lived and worked here on an E-1 (the European version of the H-1b Visa). They were essentially captive workers who were at the mercy of the whims of management; management that was largely absent from the day-to-d…

> "who were at the mercy of the whims of management" With H1B you are not tied to the same employer, you are free to leave the sponsoring employer and go elsewhere. I don't know about the E-1 visa. Again, if you feel they were being paid below the market rate, you can check up the bulletin board to make sure.

>With H1B you are not tied to the same employer, you are free to leave the sponsoring employer and go elsewhere.

The solution is never that simple. Unfortunately for many of them they're butts to fill seats for signed contracts. They go out on 6+ month on-sites and live with several roommates working for the same company. They can't pick up and leave because they're not qualified enough or experienced enough.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#138

Post by brazzledazzle »

NhanH wrote: post #93
coliveira wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that H1B holders are paid the same as American workers doesn't negate the fact that there is a depressing wage effect. The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. If salaries get too high, they just lobby the congress to increase the number of H1Bs with the excuse that there are not enough "ta…

> The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. The "natural law of supply and demand", specifically, the supply side doesn't magically stop at the border of a country. If anything, protectionism is against the free market ideal. Labor is just another resources like any other, and the extreme version of…

>The "natural law of supply and demand", specifically, the supply side doesn't magically stop at the border of a country. If anything, protectionism is against the free market ideal. Labor is just another resources like any other, and the extreme version of free market would include free immigration.

It seems like you're implying that supply and demand cannot exist without the libertarian free market. Supply and demand can exist in any system even ones constrained by managed economics or artificial restrictions.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#139

Post by Nutmog »

ashwinaj wrote: post #127
secondtimeuse wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not arrive fearing for my life but so did not the guy from Germany or Singapore. Why should birthplace of a person be allowed as a criteria for discrimination. Are you serious, you never heard of families under strain because 6 years into their Green Card application they had to suddenly leave, while at the same time other countries citizen could get a job. Or where someone on OPT couldn't leave to visit their…

Haha..I love debating with you. Your hyperbole gets even better. >"Why should birthplace of a person be allowed as a criteria for discrimination." Because that is the law of the land and it is fair since the number of green cards are allotted EQUALLY to all countries [1]. We just happen to be from a country where there are more number of applicants than green cards available. If it were discriminatory, why did the EB…

> Because that is the law of the land and it is fair since...

By the argument, any legal discrimination that blankets entire groups of people with the same random chance is right and fair. Slavery - OK as long as blacks kidnapped from any African country were treated equally. Segregation - OK as long as blacks anywhere in America got the same treatment. It sounds like a wind-up, but really immigration discrimination is just like race or gender discrimination. It's not fair. The difference is that popular culture hasn't graced it with its wand of disapproval so most people can't recognize it.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#140

Post by Nutmog »

super2 wrote: post #105

First they came for the Auto workers, and I did not speak out— Because I was not an Auto worker, and I felt they were overpaid and sort of lazy. Then they came for the Electronics manufacturing, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a line worker, and the line workers need to be in high-value fields. Then they came for the Electrical Engineers, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a EE, and it seems sort o…

They came for you and stripped you of your privileged position in society that was granted to you by the lottery of birth and maintained by your fellow members of the privileged class? They instead imposed a meritocracy that gave equal opportunities to people from many diverse backgrounds alongside your own?

It sounds like a net win from an outsider's perspective.

Post reply on HN