U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#11

Post by ones_and_zeros » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 10:27 PM UTC

secondtimeuse wrote: post #4

To pre-empt anticipated comments Job Outlook "Growth" is change in number of people employed: From the source here are the numbers for other disciplines. Software Developer Job Outlook, 2014-24 17% (Much faster than average) http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... Computer Hardware Engineers Job Outlook, 2014-24 3% http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/computer... Database Admini…

According to these reports, starting salaries for CS graduates are about 4% lower in 2015[0] than in 2014[1].

The recent OPT moves by DHS is proof enough the government is all too willing to help employers in any way possible and isn't interested in actually helping citizens and green card holders fill these jobs.

[0] https://www.naceweb.org/uploadedFiles/Content/static-assets/...

[1] https://www.naceweb.org/uploadedFiles/Content/static-assets/...

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#12

Post by adevine » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 10:28 PM UTC

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #6

heapcity wrote: post #5

People with Engineering / Comp. Sci. Degrees are not in short supply. Exceptional engineers and programmers are. Its almost like the difference between kids who want to play football and the people with talent to make it.

A lot of programming jobs don't require rock star programmers.

While this is true, I have found that a developer who can do the following to be very rare:

1. Take a set of requirements, and first identify those reqs for any underspecified elements, or elements where the underlying tech would limit the functionality.

2. Implement the reqs according to the now agreed upon spec

3. Provide adequate documentation and tests for the new implementation.

4. Perhaps most importantly, and rarely, implement the reqs in a manner where the code is not brittle (some small req change doesn't require a huge overhaul) and where other developers can quickly get into and understand the code.

That is, even if you don't need a rock star programmer, if your code base is going to live on for more than the life of the person originally writing it you are going to find that people who can fulfill this role are quite rare.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#13

Post by reality_czech » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 10:28 PM UTC

reality_czech wrote: post #3

ydkditfi wrote: post #2

Reminder that "STEM" was just a buzzword designed to flood the skill-intensive labor markets with a generation of idealistic youngsters, all with the intention of driving down wages. There never was a labor shortage, or as it's occasionally framed, a "talent" shortage.

Yes. We need fewer STEM graduates, and/or more money in science.

Care to explain why this was modded down? I think the lack of resources for new graduate students is sad, and it blights the lives of many people in science. There are too few tenure track spots, so many PhDs have to wait until their 40s to have a normal job and salary. People are not willing to question authority or publish negative results because that would slow down the all-consuming struggle to outcompete the other 50 people applying for the same fellowship / grant / position / whatever.

A little competition is good, but most STEM careers are a ridiculous vow of poverty at this point. If we're not going to fund it more (and we should...) we should at least be honest to kids about what's waiting for them. The idea that there was ever a shortage of STEM graduates is really a very deceitful piece of propaganda, when the real shortage is funding.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#14

Post by oldmanjay » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 10:29 PM UTC

ydkditfi wrote: post #2

Reminder that "STEM" was just a buzzword designed to flood the skill-intensive labor markets with a generation of idealistic youngsters, all with the intention of driving down wages. There never was a labor shortage, or as it's occasionally framed, a "talent" shortage.

There is also the intention to produce, which is easy to forget when the rhetoric gets thick in protectionism-promoting circles.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#15

Post by virmundi » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 10:30 PM UTC

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #6

heapcity wrote: post #5

People with Engineering / Comp. Sci. Degrees are not in short supply. Exceptional engineers and programmers are. Its almost like the difference between kids who want to play football and the people with talent to make it.

A lot of programming jobs don't require rock star programmers.

I agree with the literal sentence. I disagree that with its implied extreme. Most jobs don't require rock star programmers. Most jobs require people that can do more than cobble together a series of StackOverflow answers. This implies that most jobs need to have competent developers.

From my limited experience, competent is getting harder to find. I go into a JavaScript SPA almost daily. I'm not a big JavaScript guy, but I grok functional programming and the language. I constantly see things that make me go, "Huh?" This isn't that they're doing advanced JavaScript things. It's that they are doing it wrong (one person used a regular for loop to side-effect create a new array). These poor practices add up in general, and specifically in an AngularJS app where you've got to accept a layer of magic in the view binding.

Hopefully we get better at competent, especially in dynamic, mostly typeless languages such as JavaScript.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#16

Post by nashashmi » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 10:31 PM UTC

In response to a comment claiming outsourcing was the issue, I responded with this and thought it relevant to post here:

FWIW, the very cap on H-1Bs plus the decreasing attraction of coming to the US is the very reason ALL companies are going overseas.

I once did a research on outsourcing and the pivotal reason I found for outsourcing was not the "cheapness" of the foreign markets, but the decreasing flexibility and opportunity to continue development at home, and this decrease was dominated mainly by inability to find people to do the work. It may seem hard to believe but it isn't once you add up all the pieces. While factory workers may seem abundant and easy to find, finding upper-level factory operators across various disciplines from IT to Management to Operations was very difficult. Conversely, the two places where they were the easiest to find was China and India in that order. After all, who wants to work in a factory when they grow up anyways?

So what do companies do? They go above and beyond plus bend backwards to make overseas operations feasible. This problem is not just limited to factory workers, or electrical engineering, but any industry that has a hard time finding good quality workers. My industry of civil engineering is probably going to go next.

I could write an entire paper on this, but I will stop here.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#17

Post by coliveira » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 10:31 PM UTC

heapcity wrote: post #5

People with Engineering / Comp. Sci. Degrees are not in short supply. Exceptional engineers and programmers are. Its almost like the difference between kids who want to play football and the people with talent to make it.

You should understand that your logic can be used to prove that any profession is in short supply. Exceptional accountants are in short supply, so we should hire them in droves from India. Exceptional cab drivers are in short supply too, so we should have a visa waiver to bring them from Europe...

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#18

Post by npalli » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 10:33 PM UTC

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #11

secondtimeuse wrote: post #4

To pre-empt anticipated comments Job Outlook "Growth" is change in number of people employed: From the source here are the numbers for other disciplines. Software Developer Job Outlook, 2014-24 17% (Much faster than average) http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... Computer Hardware Engineers Job Outlook, 2014-24 3% http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/computer... Database Admini…

According to these reports, starting salaries for CS graduates are about 4% lower in 2015[0] than in 2014[1]. The recent OPT moves by DHS is proof enough the government is all too willing to help employers in any way possible and isn't interested in actually helping citizens and green card holders fill these jobs. [0] https://www.naceweb.org/uploadedFiles/Content/static-assets/... [1] https://www.naceweb.org/uploaded…

For CS graduates, I see the 2014 Salary as $62,103 and the 2015 Salary as $65,004. Which is actually a 6% increase. The 2014 was a 6% increase over 2013. So more than 10% increase in two years. What are you seeing?

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#19

Post by secondtimeuse » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 10:33 PM UTC

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #11

secondtimeuse wrote: post #4

To pre-empt anticipated comments Job Outlook "Growth" is change in number of people employed: From the source here are the numbers for other disciplines. Software Developer Job Outlook, 2014-24 17% (Much faster than average) http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... Computer Hardware Engineers Job Outlook, 2014-24 3% http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/computer... Database Admini…

According to these reports, starting salaries for CS graduates are about 4% lower in 2015[0] than in 2014[1]. The recent OPT moves by DHS is proof enough the government is all too willing to help employers in any way possible and isn't interested in actually helping citizens and green card holders fill these jobs. [0] https://www.naceweb.org/uploadedFiles/Content/static-assets/... [1] https://www.naceweb.org/uploaded…

Actually there was a 6% increase in salary between 2013 and 2014. And the "data" for 2015 is derived from mere 705 "# of Salaries".

There aren't any new recent moves by DHS regarding "OPTs". The proposed change in "STEM Extension", won't come into affect at least until mid 2016.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#20

Post by forrestthewoods » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 10:34 PM UTC

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #11

secondtimeuse wrote: post #4

To pre-empt anticipated comments Job Outlook "Growth" is change in number of people employed: From the source here are the numbers for other disciplines. Software Developer Job Outlook, 2014-24 17% (Much faster than average) http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... Computer Hardware Engineers Job Outlook, 2014-24 3% http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/computer... Database Admini…

According to these reports, starting salaries for CS graduates are about 4% lower in 2015[0] than in 2014[1]. The recent OPT moves by DHS is proof enough the government is all too willing to help employers in any way possible and isn't interested in actually helping citizens and green card holders fill these jobs. [0] https://www.naceweb.org/uploadedFiles/Content/static-assets/... [1] https://www.naceweb.org/uploaded…

I'm pretty sure starting salaries at big companies are strictly increasing. There is just a larger increase in the number of lower paying jobs. Which may simply mean more CS job opportunities in more cities that have a lower cost of living then the previous average.

Finding truth in numbers is hard.